New Seasons Plans - Feedback & Poll

[scrawnybob]

hi all

This is probaly going to be a bit of a long winded post to try and cover all possibilities and ideas for next season

I've got my own ideas on what I'd like to do some Ive voted on in the poll, some I havent so I dont bias others suggestions or thoughts ;-)

In order to fit a full 12 week season in before the end of the year we CANNOT have a break so we will go straight into next season without a week off ...

This means ANY team transfers etc will have to be sorted very quickly after the final 12th game of this season and the 1st game the next Sunday

I have several ideas for adjusting things a bit on the leagues - these are open for discussion and debate as usual - but my decision after the feedback will also be final - as usual ;-)

looking at the turnout we have been getting for the Team Play on Carbon games (upwards of 35-45 per game) afaiks the team idea seems to be popular ...

I am considering making ALL leagues team only leagues ?????

In order to keep the team leagues competitive I have proposed splitting the winning team or a team who wins twice in a row etc so things dont become a procession ... however this seems to be unpopular ... so the solution I have come up with is that instead of the top 10 players scoring ...

for team games we will score the top 20 from each game (1st 20pts - 20th 1pt)

If we can get 35+ players for the Carbon game I intend to bring the FullTilt TOC (Team Only Cup) back in for season II ... these will be using the same teams as for the Carbon games
and will be setup on Sundays at 2pm EST ... also I intend to amalgamate the monthly FT HORSE game into the TOC league so that the 4th, 8th & 12th game of the league will be a HORSE game ...

FullTilt TOC II back Sundays 2pm EST with HORSE game every 4th game

I'm expecting that with a Fulltilt league added there will be more demand for New Teams and places in teams and players in existing inactive teams wanting to move to new ones ... this is going to be tricky BUT I dont want low posting or new members just setting up teams to be in themselves so I think we will have to restrict who can setup teams or I will open up a new team available as others fill ... I could do with high posting / active member volunteers to caretaker or setup teams that they will move to OR look after OR generally monitor the teams and PM me with issues that I might not spot

Need active members for team management / team monitoring

US Open & Euro League has been running for seven seasons with various formats of buy-in & freeroll / buy-in only and also at a larger or smaller number of site hosts ... AFAIK the numbers taking part in the $1 buy-in format are not growing. Whether this is due to site choice or if 2 sites are too many or too few to attract more members I dont know. However unfortunately I have to balance the books on the leagues and also decide which sites to work with and if them part funding games makes a difference to where we should be playing or not etc ...

at the moment I have two possible suggestions of strategy on this to balance the books and more importantly try to increase the numbers

a) make ALL leagues team only games including the US Open and Euro League

b) play all 12 games at ONE site for each league - US Open at Bodog & Euro League at PKR Poker

OR play at several sites ie. 4 sites each with 3 games

OR play at 2 sites per league as per the current season


possible US Sites would be from - Bodog, Cake, DoylesRoom, Carbon, FullTilt & maybe PokerStars

possible EUro sites would be from - PKR, Titan, Pacific, RedKings PokerHeaven & maybe Party

Please bear in mind that some sites are options for single site league or 2 site league and others are only an option if part of a 4 site league

I could do with feedback on all this in the thread and or the poll below asap

including feedback on anything I've missed out

cheers scrawnybob

[LombardiStix]

Hey Bob,

Very comprehensive options you have presented.

Things I liked:
Scoring top 20. It would be more work for you, but if you're up to it I think it would be an interesting wrinkle.

Full Tilt TOC. I was always a fan of the TOC having the two team games in one day was fun.

Playing the US/Euro at two sites for the duration of the league. I like this idea because you can plan easier if you just need a certain amount of money on one or two sites. I would also like to see a 5$ game get thrown in on a monthly basis. You could offer it as DOUBLE POINTS game. A regular 5$ game plus $50 added would show a big pot which would turn some heads and get more players interested.

Things I would rather not see happen:
Mandatory team splitting. It is a fact... if you can get your team to show up maybe 7-9 players per game your team will win the season. It is basic numbers because if you got 8 outta 35 players you're gonna get some in the top if they're not complete donkeys. I'm not taking anything away from any team, this was the case with my team. So my enhancing suggestion would be to make 5 player teams. This would minimize the advantage of a team that knows each other and will ALWAYS show up. This will give new players and new teams a fighting chance against established teams. There will also be less "cheating" "dumping" "softplay" etc.

Nor would I want all leagues to be team only. For one, the team league would lose its "sparkle". Secondly, you would take any chance a stand up poker player has against consistently present teams. I think it would alienate players.

Just my 2 or 3 cents.

Stix

[hojediade]

Hey peeps.
I spent almost half an hour reading that thread, and will have another half-an hour to write my message.

Here are my view on your plans.

1. I'm not sure that considering all League games as part of the Team game would be good, and it would probably restrict the average # of players involved, as some of us, like me () aren't part of any team. So how would i join the HORSE game if it's restricted to team members? I know that i can create or join a team, but i won't probably be able to play in TPT or TOC more than once in a while.
   
2. I agree with Stixy about playing Leagues at 2 rooms, just like this season (with the same rooms), cause it's easier to find new players when the tourneys are on a regular basis. My own opinion would be to have 2 separate leagues for Euros and the same for US with each League having 12 games with one game each week on each room. I guess that you won't be able to support the added money as it would mean double money involved in our League games, so that's why i think that the added money could be reduce to $25 per game. Another thing that could be nice is open the league to new varieties, once in a while. Why not 8 NLTH and then 1 Omaha8, 1 Omaha, 1 Stud8 and 1 Stud or 1 Limit Holdem, as thoses are the most played OL.
   
3. For the team scoring, i have not much opinion yet, but i tend to think that smaller teams would be easier to manage and would reduce the differences between full squad that shows-up every week and half squad that only shows-up twice a month. Plus if you choose to reward with points only top 2 finishers from each team, then the LB would probably be "tighter" and the tourneys would offer more challenge. Nor, another thing that could be done is picking up top 8 results form each player at the end of the season, and forget about the four others to establish the LB.

Don't know if that could help, but that's my feelings about it.

PS: +1 for the $5 game.

[Arjonius]

I prefer shorter leagues. With one game per week US and one Euro, I'd rather they run two months than three. That would be 8 or 9 games depending on the months, and would decrease the length of time people have to wait for a new one to start after they drop out of contention in the current one.

I think one team league is fine.

My guess is that a $5 game would draw fewer players, not more. That's what happens in other forums, , but the only sure way to find out is to try one and see.

While Bodog is open to Canadians now, it has only a couple of deposit options. I won't deposit there until / unless they add the e-wallet that I use for all my poker. I know a couple of forums that have freerolls there, so that's currently the only way I'll get any money to play games there.

PKR is a site I seldom play at because I find the software annoying. All I want is a simple, straightforward table view, not to have to fiddle with the camera angle and to peek at my cards. And the 3D does nothing positive for me to offset this; in no way do I feel it improves my enjoyment. So I'm not likely to play there.

I prefer NLH for the simple reason that it's my best game. However, it might add some interest and variety to play some other games. My preference would be to have them as a separate league, or maybe a mini-league with fewer games.

[scrawnybob]

hi all

interesting feedback already - not sure I will be able to keep everyone happy all of the time ;-) but I'll give it a shot once we have a bit more concensus

BTW Ive added an additional poll choice that was missing

ie. keep the US Open and Euro leagues as individual leagues / not team only leagues

and added another one for occasional $5 buy-ins in the US Open and Euro games

I think this means the poll covers all the possible choices I'd originally thought about

just following on from a couple of the suggestions ...

the original idea of splitting some of the top winning teams was to rebuild them up to 10 again with new joiners - but this is clearly not popular - so clearly is NOT something I'm considering

the idea if having 5 max teams as has been suggested afaiks is a different idea altogether so might be worth thinking about - however my concern with teams is that with smaller teams we loose accountability and could end up with new teams getting created for the wrong reasons and not in the spirit of things ...

So I really like the idea of scoring 20 places ... but I'd rather have to only do this on the 2 Sundays leagues and not all leagues ;-)

my gut feeling is that we have the 2 Sunday leagues as team only (Carbon TPT and FullTilt TOC) but only these two as team leagues

In terms of the HORSE game ... this would have to be included in the FT TOC in order to fit the game in each month ... I have a strong feeling that more members will be looking to join teams just to play in the Fulltilt TOC that maybe havent played in the Carbon TPT

this means we have increased the team games but kept the individual league side as well

the idea of having 2 euro league and 2 US leagues (at individual sites) but with 1/2 the money added could work ... however I'm not sure how much people will go for a $25 added game ... then again with sya 25 players that is still a 100% overlay / double the prize pool ... so this idea could grow on me ;-)

also the idea of a shorter 8 game / 2 month leagues might be worth thinking about ... probably easiest if we stick with 12 week league to round of this year and decide on format for next year before Christmas

cheers scrawnybob

[pokertoker]

It's taken me a while to digest all the idea's put forth here!
Since the next season is barely a month away..I'm inclined to offer BIG suggestions for next year, while looking on the next few months as a testing ground for new ideas.

1
I find the idea of the team games good fun, but from a pure poker playing perspective I consider them a bit unnatural. I find myself tightening up too much AND over-betting depending on the situation! So..while I would love to see a Fulltilt game on the schedule, I'd prefer it to be a 'US Open' game(or part of a new league altogether).

In my ideal world, the weekly game on carbon would actually stay a team game, but it would be a Shoot-Out tournament with 2 rounds!
This would let each entrant play as an individual in the first round, then at the final table he would be playing for team glory.
Instead of points scored, there would be a team who won each week.

May I humbly suggest that during the last 4 Carbon games in December, we try different structures for each game (eg week 9 - deepstack, week 10 - PL H.O., week 11 - HORSE and week 12 - my audacious idea of having a Shoot-Out game) ;op

2
I joined another forum a few days ago, which has the most interesting scoring system for a league I have ever seen! An exact template could be used on 4KP..or even a modified version with the top 20 places scoring.

(Before I scare you Bob, I think the following is done 'database' style - which i think would simplify it slightly)
EVERYONE SCORES POINTS! Lets say 23 people enter a game...the first person eliminated scores 1 point, while the winner gets 23 points.
Which basically means you get EXACTLY the amount of points you 'deserve'!
(compare this to getting only 15 points for winning a smaller field tourney say)

There is another very interesting element to this other league - lets say our league runs for 12 weeks..well, after the final game we only add up our 'ten best' results.(maybe even as low as 8 or 9 best)
This would give a little breathing space to people who couldn't participate every week...as well as not fundamentally changing history!

3
US Open & Euro League
To be honest, I would be happy enough with one site only per league, with $25 added..if you gave us 1 thing in return Bob!!
For longterm competition..it seems almost crucial to have prizes for either the winner or top 3 in a league. Some low value tourney tickets maybe...hell I would be happy enough with a loaf of bread ;op

More people will see our league games listed in a lobby if it is appearing there each and every week(instead of every 2 weeks), which should surely attract more numbers.

There's a few other things I wanted to comment on, I will try and add these later...

[pirates831]

i don't know what to add, so i'm going to tell you what i want. i apologize if that sounds selfish.

i play at carbon almost exclusively now.

i like the team game, but i think everyone should be allowed to play. unfortunately, some people don't play every week ... and i know during football season, i won't be making it every week.

i like the idea of scoring 20 places. i don't like the idea of scoring EVERY place.

let's face it: the team game is always going to be won by whatever team can get 8-10 guys to show up regularly. i would make the championship available to a few of the top players from other teams as well as the winning team ... for instance, anyone with multiple wins, or just the top 5 other players.

keep the games at $1 ... if you want to throw in 1 $5 game, OK.

keep it at NLHE. i am not playing anything else. i'm sure a lot of others won't either.

again, i apologize if this comes across as self-serving. i certainly don't expect you to go with everything i suggested.

[Logan]

Hi Bob.

I am cool now, will try to comment about all points.


About FullTilt TOC II back Sundays 2pm EST with HORSE game every 4th game

I don't think can play in this one because is too early for me in Sundays, but i guess is a good idea.

Now, if this games are early because that way Euro players could play (like week games in Euroleague), maybe will be fair if Carbon game is set to play a little late then, lets say 2 hours more late (7et like Us open league in weekdays).

Because right now still is late for Euro players at 5et in Carbon, and also early for some Us players, so with fulltilt game i think is good for Euros then Carbon could be good for Us players a little late.

About the 20 points, well that is going to be more work for you, and really don't see how that is going to help in make thinks better for more teams.

Lets say one team have 4 players in top 10 places, right now the points are 10 for first and 1 for 10 place, but with 20 places, top 10 now going to have 20 points for first place and 10 points for 10 place, with this you give more points to those 4 players, and also if 10 more places score that team have more chances that not only 4 players score but more, so i think is worst for other teams.

That could only work if we set a rule that 5 is the max of players that can score by team in each game.

Lets say a team have 4 in top 10, but in top 20 have 8 or 9, that is no good for other teams, but then if you only take the top 5 players from that team, other teams have more chance because are 15 places left with points and you know that only 5 can score even if the 10 players place in the top 20.

In other words, you suggest to break teams, other suggest to have only teams of 5, none of that can be set, but what if we keep the 10 players by team, but only 5 can score by game?, and with 20 places with points, that way we give more chance to more teams to get points.


About Euro and Us open leagues, i think is not good idea to make this leagues also for teams.

I think that for increase numbers in this leagues you need to use only one room by league, because to be honest is hard to have 4 different rooms (2 for Euro 2 for US open) if we end playing only every 15 days in each one.

And maybe could be better if use the sites that you know already have better numbers.

For example, if we have very good numbers in Carbon games, why not use Carbon for Us League also?.

For Euro i say forget about Titan, every game is a problem in there with crashers.

About the $25 ad, i don't think is a problem, lets face it, 4kp runs one of the biggest Added money for so little buy in.

You can go to all forums and most of them are $1 + $10 Ad, $2+$20/$25/30Ad, and the $50ads are for the $5buy in games, so $1 for $25Ad still is a great option.

About run 2 Euro 2 Us open leagues, i think is too much, 4 leagues plus the 2 team leagues?

I think could be good only run 1 league Euro and 1 League Us Open even if is only 1 room each one.

And if want to save some money, forget about the $50 Ad in US/Euro leagues, in 12 games with $50 Ad is $600, you could Ad only $25, that makes $300 in the 12 games, Ad a $100 for top 3 places ($50,$30,$20), and you use only $400, save $200 and keep us there playing for the added money plus the prizes for top players.

If $25 is too little could be $30Ad plus the top 3 prizes and still save $140 (by league)


About the $5 buy in games, i think is ok 1 in the month, but for more i think could be better a $3 buy in game.

I think thats it for now, if think some more come back and post.

[hojediade]

Hey peeps,

I wanted to add that many good comments come along with that thread, make me think that we're all appreciate much this forum and hope for it to grow bigger but i also see that we all have our own view, which is quite normal as we're all like pirates831, selfish.

To rebound, i think that 4kp is offering one of the most attractive small BI schedule i saw and i don't understand why we can't get more players involved in it.
There must be a good reason, and i think that could come from the fact that we're not playing thoses games every week, so that the attraction get lower. Plus, if you're used to play on a single platform, it means that you won't be able to win the league as you'll miss half of the tournaments. That's why i came first with this idea of having a game each week in each room, and why not 2 leagues for Non-US and 2 leagues for US members. Only for advertising 4kingpoker on each room each week.
For the team games, there is no easy solutions, IMO. I don't really know how many euro members are playing the TPT, but it could represent 1/3 of the field in my guess. So maybe a dedicated poll for time issues on team games would be a good idea, with one for each room so that you could see which time seems to be the best. My personnal trouble with team game is that it takes place on sundays, which is not the best day for me to play a late game.
I still don't know which point system could be the more competitive. The answer would probably rise from different simulations with various ideas, on past results. Let's pick-up 5 first tourneys of the season and try different scoring to see which is the most interessant one for competition. It would probably takes some hours of simulate, but would be a great help to fix the rules definetely.

[nb1961]

I like the idea of 20 scoring, it's yet to be proved but I think that would make for a closer league without there being a runaway leader.

I think from the response it gets the Carbon game is the right time, I think it's been mentioned before that several of us would prefer it to start with 2000 chips rather than 1500, and from a personal point of view it would be nice to have 12 minute blinds. But then I prefer a deeper stack slower game.

The FullTilt team game on Sunday would be great and I would enjoy the challenge of trying different types of games. But only if the buy in stayed nearer $1. Putting the buy in up to $5 will severely reduce the field. I stopped playing the $5 HORSE because it felt like I was just throwing the money away. The last result I can see there was only 13 played, but the $1 HORSE on FullTilt last week had 26 and probably would have had more. I think you will find this happening with all $5 games. Why not work up to it try a $2 first?

I like the Euro/US League as it is, PKR is always difficult for me as my computer doesn't like it much but apart from that I think it's a good format.

One things for sure if you get 50 people respond to this tread you will get 50 different ideas, but I think it's great that you value the member enough to to put important decisions up for discussion. Thanks Bob many forums wouldn't do this, another reason why 4K rocks!!