Issues Team scoring in regular leagues - Team Leaders

[scrawnybob]

hi all team leaders

as you may or may not be aware IMHO from feedback I've been getting for quite sometime now from regular (non team) members the adding of the team factor to the regualr leagues games doesnt seem to be having a positive effect - quite the reverse

there is thread here in feedback for general discussion ...

http://www.4kingpoker.com/forum/4kin...html#post44181

but I also felt it was important to discuss this at least with the team leaders also

feedback I have been getting is broadly similar from general members but they are "afraid" to raise this in the forum as they dont want to get shot down ... this stems from the feeling that the team thing has taken over the individual nature of the regular leagues and team play is happening but more importantly chat and vibe has become hostile / negative or generally less enjoyable as a result of the team angle in regular leagues

If there is one thing I dont like to see / feel / hear is that any members are not enjoying being part of the community ... and that the site and posts are friendly / helpful etc ... that above all else is my priority

Unfortunately as I've mentioned before in the haste to get the team thing going - My original aims of the team idea seemed to have got lost in translation fairly early on ... as I originally said the aim was not for active members to just build uber teams and battle out between 4-7 ultra competitive teams taking it all very seriously ...

The idea / hope was that more active members would setup their own teams with maybe an obvious core of 5 players who were well known and regular scorers and then grow their teams to 20 from reasonably active / less active members to encompass much more of the forum (and active members) ... that hasnt really happened as and inevitable result we've ended up with a predictably competitive core of teams and players which at least in the regular leagues is off putting to the non team majority

Possible Solutions

BTW the team only Team Play Trophy at Carbon will continue for this season unaffected whatever I decide ... I will review how best to restucture times / day etc for the next season.

There are several solutions and variations on solutions IMHO (which may or may not be popular with teams / everyone / or no-one who is likely to speak up for or against (bear in mind the majority wont comment for fear of retribution) ... that is not a good place for us to be hence the need for something to change

solutions for current regular leagues

a) stop the team angle in regular leagues now (halfway point) and declare winners of the respective US Open, Non US & FTvPS leagues - and then run $50 freerolls for each winning team (at FullTilt as thats easiest under the circumstances) - winners would be Elite, D'Evil & Warriors

this unfortunately leaves out the other 4 scoring teams - Jokers, Ladies, Rolled up & 72off teams ... so I'd propose adding in one other $50 freeroll which would be open to those teams as a group

b) continue to run teams in current regular leagues - with the proviso that teams take on board the feelings / observations of non team members and try to behave a little more appropriately or at least consider this post and the issues in it

c) stop the team angle in regular leagues now (halfway point) and NOT declare or have winners of individual leagues ... but to make up for prize games have 3 $50 freerolls at FullTilt open to all teams as one off team only events - and get bragging rights etc from those ... accepting that the team idea didnt quite work out as planned and look at these games as a better way to make up for it than declaring winners halfway

thats pretty much all I've got on suggestions for how to solve the current problems

Solutions for future team seasons

As I mentioned earlier I'd hoped everyone had picked up on the spirit of the team idea and would have made more teams and courted more of our active but not very active members to make their total 20 teams ... this is still my hope and aim of the team idea

for the next season of team only games / league I'd like to suggest that we split out the current teams into 5's or 10's of the current team membership, creating either double (10 per team start) or quadruple (5 per team start) and then teams can build and involve more of the membership - bear in mind we have 800+ eligible members with 10+ posts so with a bit of time on invites (making us more friendly and socialble) teams could be up to 20 not unrealistically

how to do this is a bit complicated ...

we could try to do this in the one week between leagues - but realistically I know people wont read PM's or do this in that time frame effectively

so the other possibility is to "freeze" the current teams membership in terms of scoring for the current carbon team play trophy - ie. I make a list of who is currently where and can then continue to do the scores for the current carbon league unaffected ...

while teams / members start to restructure themselves straight away - creating new teams (of 5 or 10) from the current active team members and also giving time for all teams to attract new members for their additional 10 or 15

this way the current carbon league will run on unaffected - as its unlikely we will get anymore to join teams in the current setup (that was other feedback - that the teams are clearly very picky and not very friendly to non members & slow to approve or unapprove applying members)

and we can get the whole team idea back on track as something to encourage social / help / improve players etc

I hope this is seen as a positive discussion - as I'm aware its a bit of a hot topic but it has to be addressed

and I AM open to suggestions and feedback on this - I just want to get the team thing back on track as a positive addition to the games / the forum not a negative one as it seems to be currently evolving into

cheers scrawnybob

[kingjames07]

ok here is about all the feedback i have on this...if you decide to end it now it wouldn't be fair IMO for 4 teams to have just one freeroll for them...so mabye take top 3 teams and add a lower scoring team in with them ... since the fullhouse team only has a couple of their members that play consistantly just throw them in the mix somewhere


as for next league breakin teams down and stuff....i will go with whatever u decide on that issue....it's a shame it may end this way but oh well...me personally i don't talk shit to people in games it's just one person that i choose to not respond to or acknowledge at the tables be cause of the humor they found at me being attacked by non members once..well not non members but ones that shouldn't have been in the tourny anyway.....i may shout out my team name sometimes at the table or congratulate them more....but it is all in fun....sorry others dont see it that way...but im sure u will sort this if the fairest way possible bob



that is my input for now...thanks for listening.....lol

[scrawnybob]

hi KJ

yep trust me this isnt an easy decision - and keeping going as things are IS an option

but we need to sort out some of the problems which maybe will get addressed just by discussion out in the open ... maybe my gut feeling that the forum is losing its friendly feel is misfounded ... but judging by some of the feedback that the feel of the games has changed does seem to be confirmed by non team players comments to me (and as with all these things I know if I get say 10 people PMing me then there is probably a factor or 10-20x that amount who are just not commenting but getting put off

I'd rather not change things part way through - trust me it's easier to stick to plans than have to spend alot of time re-jigging them

your suggestion of maybe games with 1st & 2nd in the running having a "play off" seems like a good one

but I'd rather the issue sort itself as a result of drawing everyones attention to it

My main concern is that the teams have generated a bit of a them and us culture ... the banter and rivalry is fine ... but at the moment there doesnt seem to be the openings for people to get involved in the team thing without plumping for an ad hoc team ... which isnt very tempting IMHO ... and non team players are finding they are trying to second guess team orders on players when they're in hands etc

I dont know how well Im explaining the issues but it maybe that just bringing it up will improve things

And yes I do like to try and discuss things with everyone and get feedback ... without it I just have to shoot in the dark and make my best shot at the best decision in the interests of the whole forum

IMHO the teams will definately need restructuring at the end of the season if we let things run as they are for this season ... yes / no ?

cheers scrawnybob

[NUCKING_FUTS_4]

hi KJ

yep trust me this isnt an easy decision - and keeping going as things are IS an option

but we need to sort out some of the problems which maybe will get addressed just by discussion out in the open ... maybe my gut feeling that the forum is losing its friendly feel is misfounded ... but judging by some of the feedback that the feel of the games has changed does seem to be confirmed by non team players comments to me (and as with all these things I know if I get say 10 people PMing me then there is probably a factor or 10-20x that amount who are just not commenting but getting put off

I'd rather not change things part way through - trust me it's easier to stick to plans than have to spend alot of time re-jigging them

your suggestion of maybe games with 1st & 2nd in the running having a "play off" seems like a good one

but I'd rather the issue sort itself as a result of drawing everyones attention to it

My main concern is that the teams have generated a bit of a them and us culture ... the banter and rivalry is fine ... but at the moment there doesnt seem to be the openings for people to get involved in the team thing without plumping for an ad hoc team ... which isnt very tempting IMHO ... and non team players are finding they are trying to second guess team orders on players when they're in hands etc

I dont know how well Im explaining the issues but it maybe that just bringing it up will improve things

And yes I do like to try and discuss things with everyone and get feedback ... without it I just have to shoot in the dark and make my best shot at the best decision in the interests of the whole forum

IMHO the teams will definately need restructuring at the end of the season if we let things run as they are for this season ... yes / no ?

cheers scrawnybob

Well I'm like the man from delMonté, it pleases me more to say yes.

The issues have been very well presented and I appreciate everyone's effort to have this resolved quickly and amicably.

In the beginning with the team idea, I saw it as an opportunity to participate more at 4kingpoker and try and build on some of our successes as a forum and as individuals. Personally I doubted my own ability to be a truly effective team captain/leader and I still do, but nevertheless the idea needed support and I decided to take on that role. I knew it would be difficult at times but I certainly didn't envisge it becoming what it has.

From a personal POV what has occurred has only drawn me away from my original intent of supporting and encouraging my team members and the silent majority. It won't be that way from here on.

The point it hit rock bottom for me was the last buyin game at bodog. If there was ever a hand that I've been involved in that made we want to give up poker for good it was the one against Jacks with the 10 10. I won the hand and he was out of the game. It might surprise you all but I was nearly physically sick after that. All that had brought us to that moment was sickening, its was sickening itself (not just to me or you but many others especially those that have had to witness this event and others like it) and I knew that all that would come as a result of it would be sickening also. And all i want is to beat you jacks? NO.

My vote is for it to continue for this series only. Back to the original plan ... play, encourage, support (feck the winning).

As a final note I wish to apologise to the whole forum. Whilst I'm disappointed with external factors i'm more disappointed in myself. My sincere apologies to any member that came on the end of my tongue recently or has objections or difficulties with my behaviour of late. If there is anything in particular anyone wishes to discuss with me with respect to this then I'm only a PM away.

TTFN,

NF4.

[scrawnybob]

hi all

I think maybe (as I'd rather hoped) this warning has given everyone a bit of thinking time and a chance to reflect on how things can go from being "competitive" to petty or unfriendly generally - I'm not going to get into specifics because it was a general feeling

I hope that as a result of a bit of a heads up to everyone that the most important thing is the conduct and friendliness in the forum -

which means we can carry on with the team angle in all the league games for the rest of the season

so lets get back on track - enjoy all the games & keep the forum useful, friendly and helpful for everyone

cheers scrawnybob

ps. obviously the teams will need IMHO to be re-structured for the next series as I think this would help to get more members involved and taking part - this and helping other players get into the team spirit should be the prority