He had to know!

[andy334]

Someone somewhere please put my sanity right and promise me this guy did NOT know what was coming on the river. No way on earth he went for that, more to the point, no way on earth he went for that and actually got it.

When I have my rants about on-line poker this is exactly the sort of thing I am on about. He had to know in advance what was coming - simple as that.

I am not saying this was a rigged hand - I am saying this was a bloody Jokerstars rigged hand.

So where did I go wrong?? Should I have pushed all-in at the start?? Is that where I went wrong?


PokerStars Game #33932324591: Tournament #203023395, $11+$1 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level V (75/150) - 2009/10/12 8:34:27 WET [2009/10/12 3:34:27 ET]
Table '203023395 5' 9-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: Andy8334 (2270 in chips)
Seat 2: (2445 in chips)
Seat 3: (1595 in chips)
Seat 4: (1265 in chips) out of hand (moved from another table into small blind)
Seat 5: (1225 in chips)
Seat 6: (2295 in chips)
Seat 7: (3145 in chips)
Seat 8: (1015 in chips)
Seat 9: (405 in chips)
: posts small blind 75
: posts big blind 150
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Andy8334 [Ks Kc]
: folds
: folds
: folds
Andy8334: raises 300 to 450
: folds
: folds
: folds
: calls 300
*** FLOP *** [Td 9d 6c]
: checks
Andy8334: bets 300
: calls 300
*** TURN *** [Td 9d 6c] [3d]
: checks
Andy8334: bets 1520 and is all-in
: calls 1520
*** RIVER *** [Td 9d 6c 3d] [8c]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
: shows [7d 7h] (a straight, Six to Ten)
Andy8334: shows [Ks Kc] (a pair of Kings)
collected 4615 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 4615 | Rake 0
Board [Td 9d 6c 3d 8c]
Seat 1: Andy8334 showed [Ks Kc] and lost with a pair of Kings
Seat 2: folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 6: (big blind) showed [7d 7h] and won (4615) with a straight, Six to Ten
Seat 7: folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: folded before Flop (didn't bet)

Ok - rant over - back to the next Jokerstars piss-take.

[Alnoble]

I wonder if it's ever worth slow playing big pairs on PS. Somene always takes it to a showdown if you do and hits something.

He fell in love with his pair hoping you were on AK, AQ etc probally didn't even see the straight possibility. Why he didn't respect the the 2 over cards is anyones guess.

I often wonder if the same happens in the big fields for the WSOP in the lower levels or are the players who play there that bit better than the majority of those on PS.

What I would say is if you get to the last 10% on PS in these large field tournements the standard is much better and you see less showdowns and fewer suck outs. Usually once you hit the money and lose all the SS hangers on your table image gets more respect. Been there a few times now. It's just a pain trying to get past the lotto players to start with.

Al

[scrawnybob]

hi

I may have read the HH wrong but afiaks you didnt bet out enough to put off drawing hands

you MUST MUST remember that there is a world of difference between the mathmatically "correct" price to get someone off a draw and the ACTUAL price which is going to vary between players

BUT rest assured that the general price to get someone off a draw has to be at least a pot sized bet ... anything less is going to look to an average TAG text book player like a 1/3 / 1/2 or 3/4 size pot bet for value or representing another drawing hand

IF for example I get the feeling that I'm up against another drawing hand OR even a strong hand is giving me ok-ish odds to chase my draws I WILL call it down at least one if not two streets

afaiks you raised preflop to 450 and they called (so at least 900 in pot ... not sure who was SB & BB ?)

the board comes down moderately interesting ... with 2 suited, one high card and a VERY straight draw friendly flop

(bear in mind since everyone has read doyle's super system everyone also thinks the 78 off is a very playable hand - alot ... so I always look at 6 9 flops as a potential trap open ended straight draw for someone) ...

seeing 3 cards in that middle ground 10 9 6 would make me hesitant about slow playing KK ... that flop isnt my idea of a friendly flop

you then bet out 300 ... villian looks down to check that he has infact still got 2 cards and justifiably calls

your making it less than a 1/3rd of the pot to call ... there is a very big range IMHO of callable hands for only 300 chips

the "villain" has a pocket pair, which he almost certainly no longer likes BUT on the other hand has (in his head) 3 cards to a flush & 3 cards to a funny straight ...

so his hand has not really got worse ... its got potentially much more interesting

but for 300 I dont see any half decent player folding as they will reckon to out play you later if they miss, take all your chips if they hit

and equally I dont see a poor player folding either for 300 - its just not enough

Pot is now at least 1500 - turn comes 3d

so our "villian" hasnt picked up improvement on straight draw BUT has on flush draw + its a low card that is less pressure for his 77 + he still isnt convinced with what you've got because you've not really shown any strength

you go all-in for about the size of the pot ... now that is either going to convince him to fold because he doesnt want to comit or its going to make him insta call because he doesnt buy your story ... because youve not told him a consistent story

If youve really made the flush he isnt going to expect you to play it like that - so he wont buy it ...

personally I can see he's called because it just doesnt look like he can be that far behind - IF he is behind ... thats what has gone through their head I can guarantee it

I dont think for one minute he put you on AA, KK, QQ or JJ ... maybe A6 or 9- ... so hes sort of ahead or sort of behind, in those sorts of situations IF the villain feels like your suddenly trying to buy the hand they WILL call

Alot of the time players must factor in the NOT going to showdown issues as much as the cards themselves

that sounds wierd when its an all-in call but if they think the allin bet is made in the hope of a fold - they will consider a bad call much more readily ... and then luck gets to play its part

at a very rough guess your hand has gone from 80% preflop to 70% on the flop to 65% on the turn

Also from what ive heard the first 1-2 days of the WSOP main event is a total all out complete and utter donk fest

hope thats a help

[marios_521]

scrawnybob has covered the replies I think.

I just want to add that when an outcome is possible to come. It WILL come.
I hear people crying because they lost with 98% favorite.
The 2% is there and it may happen.

Think about the national lottery...
Wins 1 in thousands, but there is always a winner!
You cannot say: "Hey, he had 1 in 235.000 to get that result. It is riged!".

In your hand espesialy as you played i it.. I think it is a usuall result.


P.S. Sorry for my English. This is my first post. Nice to meet you!

[rgchan]

What Bob said !! You only raised Minimum Pre-flop which luckily served its purpose to isolate your player and not scare him out.I didn,t like the looks of that flop(str8 speaking) and you only bet 300.?? Here is where they say any pot won is better than losing a big one.I would have bet pot size here.If another card came inside those cards on the Turn i would have been really scared.But it didn,t but now a flush possibility shows on the Turn.I don,t see how he could make that call either with the Flush also on the table.But it seems players on Poker Stars think the river always rewards players and they always chase.Personaly I don,t like P-Stars rivers either but that may be because I see more river catch,s.But that may be because I have never seen so many river chasers as I seee at Poker Stars.
RG

[andy334]

Hi all, thanks for the responses.

I knew the 300 post flop was a bad move but the player had been running from small bets so I figured I would go to take as much as possible - and failed.

Analysing my play over the last month I have noticed more and more often saying to myself "Don't let them get to the river" as I seem to get more and more suck-outs when I do.

It's something I have noticed and it is the next step to overcome in improving my game. For some reason I am still too timid mid hand and find myself being pushed of winning hands simply because I am trying too hard to protect my stack.

I need to analyse this a bit more as I am not certain what is the best way to get myself away from this mentality. Previously my play has been too loose and now it is becoming too tight - hopefully I can figure ou a way to find myself on the middle ground.

Thanks again - Andy

[marios_521]

You just have to get advantage of the situations.
Play by the book...
Loose in position and aggressive when you have something strong.
KK is a monster but with a lot of people in the pot or after the turn and river in a scary board tends to be... just another pair.
Charge them when you are ahead...
Fold when you see action and you know you are not so strong.

You will work it better in time.
The good news.... You know where to start.

Good luck.

[scrawnybob]

hi

hope the feedback is proving helpful - as one of the previous posters said - its better to take down a smaller pot safely than loose a bigger one

as the blinds are at 150 and you had around 2500 chips I would have been happy to take a 1000+ post on the flop rather than let it get to the turn and certainly not the river

IMHO the problem bet was the 300 - at that stage I would have pushed allin to close the hand down and move on

personally I really only like to see hands go to the river if

a) I have the total nuts (or I'm stuggling to get ANY action)

b) I have a catchup hand and can play it relatively cheaply

generally I like to finish a hand with flop play or very latest on the turn

improving flop play is a really good way to improve your game and profits ... by hands getting to the river alot really that is leaving it all to the cards and nothing to playing

hope thats a help
cheers scrawnybob

[pothole]

Have to agree with the concensus here, the post flop bet wes way too low and IMO if I had been 'villain' I would have seen it as a 'feeler' bet to see if I was on a draw. He called which indicated he had caught something or didn't believe your bet and tbh I would have put you down for a miss. Had you shoved on the flop I would have suspected that a/ you have the board beat, or b/ have 2 overcards to the board, so I'm either a real dog or in a coin flip and would think hard about risking my tourney life on either.

[andy334]

hope the feedback is proving helpful - as one of the previous posters said - its better to take down a smaller pot safely than loose a bigger one

All the feedback has been very helpful - thanks all for your comments.

I think the key here is "it's better to take down a small pot safely than lose a bigger one".

I am slowly learning to incorporate this into my game and things are slowly improving. Again, a weakness of mine is to try and take a pot down for everything I can - just another one of my many weaknesses on the table. I have learnt to give up chips as lost if I feel I am beaten but now I really need to learn to attack when the time is right rather than putting in a minimum raise and giving the other guy a pretty much free card.

I feel I just dont make people pay enough to see cards when I have the chance or put them under enough pressure to make the choice either.

I will continue to implement the advice given here and, hopefully, mould it to my style of play.

Thanks again all - the advice is much appreciated.