I Want Brutally Honest Answers Only Please!!

[Dazzler69]

This is a hand I have just played in a 2 table S'n'G, I have played a grand total of 3hands, excluding when I could check my BB. So what I want to know is what should I have done differently here to stop this guy chasing. All-in on the flop?? On the turn?? Bigger Pre-flop raise?? Bigger bets on the flop and turn???

(I know he cant see what I have but only an 8 would have given him that hand, coz the King would have given me the fully and he chases it)

PokerStars Game #7187960744: Tournament #36747113, $5.00+$0.50 Hold'em No Limit - Level III (25/50) - 2006/11/26 - 18:30:09 (ET)
Table '36747113 1' 9-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: Cakejockey (3495 in chips)
Seat 2: 1badneer (1375 in chips)
Seat 4: jalsing (1595 in chips)
Seat 5: boult44 (1710 in chips)
Seat 6: Dazzler69 (1395 in chips)
Seat 7: GC03SS (525 in chips)
Seat 8: kingkongdsm (1640 in chips)
Seat 9: Vinnie2000 (1765 in chips)
jalsing: posts small blind 25
boult44: posts big blind 50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Dazzler69 [Ks Kc]
Dazzler69: raises 100 to 150
GC03SS: folds
kingkongdsm: calls 150
Vinnie2000: folds
Cakejockey: folds
1badneer: folds
jalsing: folds
boult44: folds
*** FLOP *** [6h 9d Th]
Dazzler69: bets 150
kingkongdsm: calls 150
*** TURN *** [6h 9d Th] [Td]
Dazzler69: bets 250
kingkongdsm: calls 250
*** RIVER *** [6h 9d Th Td] [8c]
Dazzler69: bets 150
kingkongdsm: raises 500 to 650
Dazzler69: raises 195 to 845 and is all-in
kingkongdsm: calls 195
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Dazzler69: shows [Ks Kc] (two pair, Kings and Tens)
kingkongdsm: shows [Qc Jc] (a straight, Eight to Queen)
kingkongdsm collected 2865 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 2865 | Rake 0
Board [6h 9d Th Td 8c]
Seat 1: Cakejockey folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: 1badneer (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: jalsing (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 5: boult44 (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 6: Dazzler69 showed [Ks Kc] and lost with two pair, Kings and Tens
Seat 7: GC03SS folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: kingkongdsm showed [Qc Jc] and won (2865) with a straight, Eight to Queen
Seat 9: Vinnie2000 folded before Flop (didn't bet)

[harry lime]

ok, you were a little unlucky with a chaser like this but by the way you were betting he probably was putting you on A K or A ? and felt his cards were live all the way through. because your bets were never that big, he decided to take a chance to the river and knew if he hit at the end he could possibly bust you (in his mind he has an 8, J or Q to have a chance at winning the hand). i think if i was still in the pot at the turn i would have to call the bet you made because at this stage he's getting very good pot odds.

i personally would have bet a little more pre-flop and then (i think where you made the major mistake) i would have bet hard on the flop (about 400) to really find out where you were at. i believe he would have folded here as you are representing a big hand (eg. AA, KK, QQ, an over pair) and if he calls here then clearly he probably won't lay the hand down.

your pre-flop bet was less than 10% of his stack. many players would consider calling with something like 7 8 suited as it's not going to hurt them if they miss (he also had position on you). in this scenario, he would have hit a straight and again your kings are no good.

so for me :
- a bet of 200/250 pre-flop
- followed by a 400 bet post flop
- if i still felt he was chasing on the turn (you'd have to consider that he could have made a set too) then i might go all in. as it was i think you were right to slow down.

........perhaps others have differing opinions !

[Dazzler69]

Thanks a lot Harry, once again your knowledge will hopefully help me out. Wishing this would have been a cash game though coz I could have got him back for it lol. I watched the rest of the game and he continued to chase every hand he was involved in pretty much, even a jack high backdoor flush draw and lost to a fully, and went on to bitch about how the guy who had the fully (which he got when the board paired on the turn after flopping a set) was a terrible player etc etc etc. Was pretty funny though.

Thanks for the advice Harry, and to anyone else who posts their input

[scrawnybob]

hi

I agree with Harry pretty much

you needed to bet much more on the flop - with two hearts down and 2 connectors - thats a nasty flop for KK or any other big pairs

I use a straight forward counting system - call it an "in the sh*t stick" if you like

1 negative is 2 suited on flop

1 negative is 2 connectors

1 negative is cards over 10

2 negative is any possible made hands

1 negative / positive is any pair on the board

depending on my cards if I have a hand and feel I'm ahead I only slow play if none of the above flops trigger off alarm bells

2 or more of the above and I'm looking to make them pay dear for the next card - or just take the hand with the over pair - infact my consideration with to many negatives on the sh*t stick is big big bet OR fold (check) yes I'm even suggesting a check.

Making less than 1/2 pot bets give them decent enough odds to go on either of those draws

OK so once you've got into the hand and past the flop in the way your hand history looks - you should IMHO have got out on the river

To me it looks pretty certain he has hit his hand - JQ is a very definate hand for the way he played it

SO lay it down - lick your wounds and save your 450 chips for another hand

If you play a hand like KK wonky and it's clearly gone bad then FOLD & stay in the game

Even blank 7 would have made the bottom end of the straight

and think about the doyle brunson 78 suited everyone likes to play - he have had you on the flop (and would have just flat called all the way)

IMHO on the flop was where the big decision needed to have been made

On the flop I'd be thinking (out loud is cool ... your online)

TIP commentating your own & others hands all the time REALLY DOES helps your game.

"has he hit the straight already ? is he on a straight draw ? is he on a flush draw ? could he have made trip 10's"

"I have KK (really my only way to improve my hand is to hit another king)"

"I'm probably ahead but could already be dead to 78, or 10 10, my sh*t stick reads 5 ... thats bad so my options are ...

BET ...

IF I bet I have to bet big to put out the 2 sets of draws ... If he calls then I'm dead already and have to re-think
HMM I'D BE POT COMMITTED BY THEN ??

IF I bet small then I give him odds to call on any of the draws + opportunity to slow play either the made straight, trips or just about anything ... AND I WILL LEARN NOTHING FROM MAKING THIS BET / HIS CALL

IF I check will I learn anything ???? Is there potential for a check raise ?? YES DEFINATELY"

Checking when first to act in this situation is possibly a better option than any kind of bet less than 2x total pot IMHO - it leaves the option to check raise if his bet doesn't look right and also will give information on his hand strength - ALSO a chance to get out or possibly a chance to hit better cards for you than him FREE or SCARE CARDS for HIM

If he checks too then put him on the draw and then worry when it hits -

The other option is BET on the flop - and IMHO it would mean betting 2x the pot at least (which is pretty much your all-in)

This is why the check starts to look more appealing - your KK could already be beat and also behind to lots of draws

Sorry not a straight answer - but lots of thinking material hopefully

In short - BET BIG on the flop or CHECK and be very prepared to fold KK from there on in & ABSOLUTELY NOT call the raise on the river

cheers scrawnybob

[sumbullets4ya]

I feel you may have let him into the hand by small raising, but also reading into your reply to harry he is a hardened chaser who probably would have called even had you thrown all your chips in pre-flop.
Here is something to remember though Dazzler, We want these people to call our monster hands. the better hand will win most of the time and by the size of your raise pre-flop you were trying to get a bite, which you got.
Dont get disheartened if you are going into the hand with the best cards you will have their chips most of the time.
I hope this reply made some sense.(Im a little drunk) hiccupp.