How Many flops should I be seeing?

[stjanson]

I think you should play about 70% of the hands if you're playing in að tourney, but when your just playing sit&go you should play the blinds and when you have really good cards

[NoWuckingFurries]

Originally Posted by scrawnybob

well this is where IMHO having an averaged fixed number in your head can be a bit counterproductive

if I'm at a table that is so passive that they let me see virtually every flop unchallenged or with little tricky preflop play (ie. you can see the strong hands coming a mile off) then I'm going to see every damn flop I can that has potential to do damage ... the goalpost moved and all the action and tactics can start with post flop play - thats dangerous for them and good for me ... so my average % to the flop at a table like this would be potentially very high (until someone gets some balls and starts coming back at me)

if the table is tricky then I'm going to have to buckle down and look at the game more preflop ... so my average % to the flop will be much lower (or rather more tight aggressive play) - because they are going to beat me off every hand preflop or on the flop

rambling now - but I think what I'm getting at is you should play to the table and play to your cards
not a set % which is percieved as being an "ideal" average

cheers scrawnybob

That's what I would have said - if Bob hadn't beaten me to it...

[dcultra]

depends....

all that is theory.

here is my edit: FOR ONLINE PLAY ONLY
i believe.. no matter what... if you are seeing 30+% on any table....
you've got a gambling problem and aren't playing to win.
(yes... 30% max your BB unraised to see the flop included)

most ppl "play" for the action...
many so-called prowannabe's (im one of them, err... use to be one of them)
think that bluffing and making value raises and seeing value hands...
is playing....
this IS playing.
but not for long term winning... that's just playing for action.

anyways... i believe 20-25% is acceptable... and i love it when i can take down
an SnG before bubble right at 20% to the flop.

for MTT, you'll end up averaging right at 25% if you make it to final 3 players.
(at least, my stats generally reflect this)

if i start seeing that im well over 30% after the first hour in any large field MTT....
i know im gonna run into something stooopid. or i have already done many
stoopid things and just got lucky to be in thus far.

FOR LIVE PLAY: purely depends on ppl and table.
cuz you get so much more information during a live game than online.
but if im not mistaken, my live action play is at most 25% and
my tourney is something like 10 percent seeing the flop.
(one time, i made final table out of 40 players in a live tourney having
played 5 hands before the final table - yeah.. go figure!)

ok... my 2 cents.

[derringer007]

Depends on position, how many players are still in the hand, or players at the table. less players at the table i will loosing up a bit, and of course my hole cards. 17-20% sometimes less. sometimes i think i play to tight. tight is right

[hojediade]

Just one word.
Let's take a hand like QJoff. Seems to be a good starting hand almost seducing but can really turn into bad memories hand very quickly. I will try to play it at beginning of tournaments and will fold it quickly after the first hour. I will try to play it after ITM if i have enough stack.
The right thing to do for me when playing online poker is folding 75% during first hour, and this will reach almost 95% later on. When around the FT i can play very aggressive and nearly 50%. For SnG i will fold nearly 70% at the beginning and will become more aggressive with blind to grow.
Well, the thing i wanted to say is that you can't feel the bad beat when folded soon.
Keep your stack away from bad moves and look at the risky players losing their chips while you have a drink or rolling a pot (only for me, lol).
I have a chinese quote resuming the idea, make it yours:

"Contemplate the fire on the bank of opposite."

[NSC44]

Originally Posted by hojediade

Just one word.
Let's take a hand like QJoff. Seems to be a good starting hand almost seducing but can really turn into bad memories hand very quickly. I will try to play it at beginning of tournaments and will fold it quickly after the first hour. I will try to play it after ITM if i have enough stack.
The right thing to do for me when playing online poker is folding 75% during first hour, and this will reach almost 95% later on. When around the FT i can play very aggressive and nearly 50%. For SnG i will fold nearly 70% at the beginning and will become more aggressive with blind to grow.
Well, the thing i wanted to say is that you can't feel the bad beat when folded soon.
Keep your stack away from bad moves and look at the risky players losing their chips while you have a drink or rolling a pot (only for me, lol).
I have a chinese quote resuming the idea, make it yours:

"Contemplate the fire on the bank of opposite."

it depends on pos,styes of play,etc

[NoWuckingFurries]

Originally Posted by hojediade

Just one word.
Let's take a hand like QJoff. Seems to be a good starting hand almost seducing but can really turn into bad memories hand very quickly. I will try to play it at beginning of tournaments and will fold it quickly after the first hour. I will try to play it after ITM if i have enough stack.
The right thing to do for me when playing online poker is folding 75% during first hour, and this will reach almost 95% later on. When around the FT i can play very aggressive and nearly 50%. For SnG i will fold nearly 70% at the beginning and will become more aggressive with blind to grow.
Well, the thing i wanted to say is that you can't feel the bad beat when folded soon.
Keep your stack away from bad moves and look at the risky players losing their chips while you have a drink or rolling a pot (only for me, lol).
I have a chinese quote resuming the idea, make it yours:

"Contemplate the fire on the bank of opposite."

I disagree with some things in this post.

Generally I observe what's going on at the table, and tend to do the opoosite. During the first hour of the tournament I am likely to play very tight, especially if it is a freeroll, because I want to see the loose players disappearing before I loosen up my own play. So when others are playing loose I am playing tight aggressive, and hopefully I am building a tight image at the table. Blinds are small and there are no antes, so blinds are not particularly worth stealing. If I'm on the button I may semi-bluff, but it all depends on my read of the situation and the other players.

Later on in the tournament I will loosen up, especially when blinds/antes become worth stealing, but again it will usually be when I'm cutoff or button, as position is really important in poker. A lot of people tighten up around the bubble, so if I have a decent stack this is a great time to steal blinds. Again, as people have tightened up I've loosened up, I'm observing the masses and doing the opposite.

Aggression is really important in the later stages of a tournament, and at that point I will be trying to give the impression of being loose. In reality I will probably be seeing the flop with lots of small PPs and suited connectors, so I will be quite loose preflop, but I generally will be folding where I don't hit. Then I will be looking to be paid off big with the monster hands, and people will hopefully be more likely to pay me off, as my table image will be looser by this stage.

The crucial thing throughout this is that I will NOT have any percentage in mind of how many flops I should see. My maths skills will be used to calculate pot odds and EV, but not to calculate what % of flops I am seeing, because that is irrelevant. I don't want to distract myself from playing every hand as well as I possibly can. Some periods I will have loads of playable hands, other times I will have none. You can't play poker by a rigid set of rules, it's all about observing the situation and adapting your play to fit. Let's concentrate on what really matters, good luck peeps!

Incidentally:

1. I would rarely be playing QJos, unless I'm heads up or very short-stacked, or maybe the small blind when it has all folded around to me.
2. Your Chinese quote doesn't really make sense to me, and I wonder what it actually means. If it is actually "Observe the fire on the opposite bank" then I assume it means watch the people that go all-in with virtually any hand, but don't get your fingers burned by becoming involved yourself.

[luzipher]

Originally Posted by NoWuckingFurries

Your Chinese quote doesn't really make sense to me, and I wonder what it actually means. If it is actually "Observe the fire on the opposite bank" then I assume it means watch the people that go all-in with virtually any hand, but don't get your fingers burned by becoming involved yourself.

I've saw a lot of players that tired to see a donk player make allins frequently decide to call with a weak hand, and lose with a solid hand from another player that also call.

[NUCKING_FUTS_4]

Don't get too hung up on percentages. They are a good guide but don't tell all. They will vary with different stages of the tournament/game, at different blind levels, with number of players and with the other styles in play.

The number of hands you'll play also corresponds to how you get enjoyment from the game.
Some people love action and will play a greater range of cards to meet that need. Others love to be sure to win and their range is smaller and will therefore play less in all.

Far better to find what works and brings enjoyment for yourself and to stick to that. Trying to play a style that's not suited to you will frustrate and annoy you.

I would also not get too hung up on my own figures, as I'm only one of (generally) nine players at a table and I prefer to watch the number of hands my opponents are playing as that gives me an indication of their starting and calling cards.

It has long been known that the most profitable style of play over time is the tight/aggressive style and following that would mean playing less than 25% over a tournament.

[hojediade]

Originally Posted by NoWuckingFurries

The crucial thing throughout this is that I will NOT have any percentage in mind of how many flops I should see. My maths skills will be used to calculate pot odds and EV, but not to calculate what % of flops I am seeing, because that is irrelevant.

I just want to say that i'm not playing with looking at purcentage all along the games but i can tell by looking at it after a game session.
By the way i don't need to calculate my odds too but could clearly know if i'm able to catch a card when needed without using any soft.
The thing i'm looking at during a tournament are the chip average stack, number of players left and % won hand when seing the flop which should be more than 50% for me.
Anyway, everybody plays his own way and that's what poker is all about, so don't brag around that you're playing the opposite as you may reach the bank where it's burning.
BTW you clearly understood my chinese quote but it was just a translation from a soft as i'm not a native english talker.
Cards, position, players are all important to my eyes for playing, and i tend to play them all. I try to be as much tight-aggressive as i can, cause i love to see players folding after i raised them as i have a tight image. Maybe too tight though.