Online collusion...

[Washerwoman]

where does it begin...where does it end...?

Ok, we're all honest citizens...we don't cheat...

or...do we

From MSN to Skype to blatantly telling your partner what you have...and I only do that to Judge after he's folded the losing hand...

So what do all these "shared desktops" learning/working tool programs mean?

Is that ok to go into a game with a few novices and basically for the head honcho to work out the lay of the land and instruct the novices how to bet to achieve the maximum return a good idea?

From their point of view, fantastic! It's all "allegedly" a "lucrative learning curve" and some people have been coining it in using this method...altho it's a bit risky letting others see your desktop, if you have more than one pc you can actually let them onto a pc with no personal information as it is dedicated to poker and poker interfaces...

Well, there ya have it, campers, life's a gamble, and technology allows us so many ins and outs into another star-studded world of illusory winners...

hasta la vista, bambinos!

[villaridge]

I guess that there will always be cheats at any thing in life.

I dont thin'k more than a few cheat, and those that do, try for much bigger games and buyins that anyone here plays. cheating for $20 or $50 bucks seems particularily pathetic, and improbable.

There are bots that can now be bought for around $100 to crawl the cash tables, most can spot their play, and bots still suck at MTT.

The point you bring up is the desktop sharing software. They are a safe stable platform used by tens of thousands of business'. and they are a perfect way for a coach to train a poker student, one on one. They are quite impractical for say 4 peeps to cheat with. as if everyone is watching your screen, lol, you cant see ur screen, or the others.

Most peeps that cheat just use a IM service, and voice.

But then thats almost impossible to prove or catch. I think just as big or bigger problem the peeps that assume others are cheating. I have seen people go ballistic when they find a husband and wife or a live in couple that play poker in the same games, they start hollering "cheaters". Or peeps find use a desktop sharing software, and start to holler "cheaters", or find u use skype. lol, some would holler "cheaters" if they thought you knew anothers poker players phone #.

I dont think cheating goes on at low levels of play, and for sure, i have found couples to be ultra competitive with each other.

Just recently myself and three others were accused of cheating at another site. Part of the reason was, that 3 of us always seemed to win. well, Merge security checked us 4 and our hands out, and found no evidence of cheating., It feels good to be vindicated of course, but the whole experience was disgusting. I've lost an old friend, and a new friend over it.

[Washerwoman]

Life is a conundrum, Villa...

what more can one say...

[sos_egg_n]

its to easy to collude on line to be honest in my opinion online poker is CRYING out for collusion its to easy. INMO if u had a big enough team and was globally based if sophisticated enough and not overly greedy u would be uncatchable i mean how many pokersites to profit from.

of course this could be done live also but i dont believe u often get 1 table sng's so u would have to put a huge number of players into bigger tourneys which takes to much planning and then u have the embarrasment of been caught via an actual face....always more scary than a email stating ur account has been closed

all online tools are cheating imagine walking onto a live pokertable waitress comes over

waitress "would u like anything sir"

player "yes can i have a hand history of my fellow players who i have never seen along with there roi and can u send an assistant over to talk me through percentages as i am incapable of working these out myself but hey that shouldnt put me at a disadvantage and a plate of cheese toasties and half of stella please"

waitress "only half"

player "yes i have the car better watch meself"

waitress "no probs how the wife anyway"

player "shes good a long day today though she was to tired tonight"

waitress " she said last week shes feeling under pressure at work"

player "she is, shes need to get out of that place the workloads just to much"


waitress " i think weve gone off course, this topic of conversation has no point in relation to the point sos_egg_n is trying to make"

Player "your right better leave it there"

waitress "no probs GL with the game ur assistant will be over shortly and will bring hand histores with him"



PS. my question will be percieved as nosy so u dont feel obliged to answer. But u played poker with 3 mates. site accused u of cheating which they later revoked. u fell out with mates.

i would ASSUME u fell out over money which is impossible because u had no financial arrangement.....did u?

Rgds

Sos

[tking888]

sos egg n, you have such a nice way with words. my sentiments exactly. whatever has/is occurring isn't old school poker. he who needs a crutch will never walk on their own.
the player that needs tools/gadgets to gain an advantage over others has poor skills that won't develop independently (where's the learning here?)
skills--like your muscles-if you don't use them everday they will get flabby and useless. that goes for your brain too.

invading someones virtual space on the pretext of coaching them without everyones consent at the table is wrong. if the entire table is being coached like in a official training camp/school of instruction and all parties are aware that is different.
what is happening is the coaching is occurring during entry fee games. it is not railbirding in any form, it is actually telling a player how to play there hand. money is won somewhere along the line and split. somebody didn't get paid, now there is squabbling at the tables, accusations etc.
this type of "helping" is a form of cheating. i can't help the fact that you don't recognize this.
because hand histories have cleared you does by no means make you innocent. it only means there is no concrete evidence to warrant a punishment.
this virtual invasion at the poker table is morally and ethically wrong. you can fool yourself to justify your actions to others but i will not buy into your "learning tool" theory.
it's not the amount of money or the level of play that makes it cheating. it is the fact that not everyone at the table is aware or has consented to playing with people that are being "coached" .

[Terminal Frost]

player "yes can i have a hand history of my fellow players who i have never seen along with there roi and can u send an assistant over to talk me through percentages as i am incapable of working these out myself but hey that shouldnt put me at a disadvantage and a plate of cheese toasties and half of stella please"

This brings up a point I've been thinking about lately. FTP and Stars have sharkscope and pokertableratings on their list of "banned" sites while you are playing, but the HUD showing peoples betting patterns and all kinds of other info aren't.

That makes my head spin.

I don't understand why ANY software that gives you an advantage over other players is allowed.

Like sos's post implied, you can't sit down at the WSOP with 10's of thousands of hand histories. Shouldn't online poker be the same?

[PLAYFUL1]

ITS TIME 2 MOVE ON SAYS PLAYFUL ... HAVENT MET ANY CHEATERS ONLINE YET...LOL

[tking888]

thats very odd unless your joking because i remember twice being at a table wihere you were seated and you accussed 4 people of cheating. caused quite a commotion and now you say "move on?"

did you guys kiss and make up?

[PLAYFUL1]

NO PLAYFUL HASNT MADE UP 2 NO1 AND SHE DOESNT NEED ANY SO CALLED FRIENDS THAT PICK SIDES EVEN WHEN THEY WERE WRONG.. FRIENDS R FRIENDS NO MATTER WHAT... VINDICATED MY ASS .. WHAT BS IS THAT ANYWAYS

[Poker Orifice]

This thread sort of seems to have gotten a bit off-topic.

As far as online cheating goes.. the more recent ones who've been caught were mass-muti-tabling teams in the DoNs (quite a few of them on Pokerstars). Not sure of all of the details but read an article about it not too long ago (few weeks).

I'm not overly concerned with 'cheaters' on the tables I play on.... I don't typicaly play cash game (where I'd personally be more concerned about it), I don't play the DoNs & any time I have felt that others were colluding in a SNG (when it was blatant) I've reported it (hasn't happened very often as far as I know).

As far as others referring to stuff like PT3 &/or HEM poker tracking tools being considered as 'cheating'... I completely disagree. I don't use either of those programs presently as I don't feel the need for them with the types of games I'm playing (mostly MTT's). As far as them knowing what my VP$IP is, my fold to 3bet steals, how I often I fold my BB to steal or SB to steal, the % of time I coldcall bets preflop, agg factor, etc. etc. etc.,... it doesn't concern me in the least.. Most of my stats. would be pretty standard TAG & most of the stuff I'm doing in an MTT is situational. I don't think I've got any major weaknesses (as far as stats. would or might show) that would be or could be overly exploited (except for maybe 'folds blinds to steal %'... but if they're taking advantage of that then I'm probably going to 3bet resteal from them more often anyways.. < again situational).

I think many who fear poker tracking programs don't really know much about them.