Play to get paid?

[LombardiStix]

I want to say that the most gratifying wins for me have been victories (or runner ups) in big... fairly large buyin tournaments. I'm referring to tournies with players from 100-300. I want to pose a situation to you and then ask the question that controls the overall issue.

We are getting close to bubble time... we'll say there are 26 left top 18 pay. You've got less than average but you aren't exactly at an all in or fold decision. You get some pretty good cards and someone around your stack goes all in. Chances are you'll be ahead pre-flop...

You've played for hours to get to this position. If you take down this hand you will surely get into the top 5 in chip count. I know the situation above is vague, but it's vague for a reason. I want to know... do you play do get your money back and some bonus (fold) or do you genuinly play to win and if the guy sucks out on you, you are ok with it because you're not playing to make it itm.. you're playin to win.

Play to cash vs. Play to win?

spit it,
Stix

[scrawnybob]

hi

ok I know the accepted wisedom is that the (just) in the money isnt worth much relative to the buy-in which is generally true

but I think its more a case of judging things based on how good a shape your in for that given tournament

and whether you big stack or short stack near the bubble there is little point in just giving chips away ...

either because you can "afford to gamble a bit" or because you "have to gamble a bit"

you said something along the lines of "getting some pretty good cards" IMHO that isn't good enough to go with at this point

theres 8 to go before before you ITM

if you dont have to rock and roll - then dont unless you have AA or KK and even then I think that having a middling stack makes you vunerable to both the short stacks and the big stacks - so keep your head down

even with AA or KK things can go badly wrong right when you dont want them to ... that would be a shame to blow it ...

now that said players can and will take advantage of that and your tight play

BUT you have to ask yourself hand by hand ... is this a hand where I feel confident (really confident) I can control this hand and minimise risk and maximise reward

by that I DONT mean things like having to go all-in to protect a hand OR all-in to buy a hand ... I mean can you play a bit of small ball and pick up a few bets without risking too much ? this is taking advantage of the tighteing table near the bubble BUT you have to be very confident you can control the table AND not get yourself into hot water

It maybe a bit of a pussy strategy but I would rather scrape into the money in reasonable shape (some net gain) and then play harder and build within the money than fall short

with in this case 18 getting paid IMHO there is more than enough scope for climbing up the money within the money

just my 2p

cheers scrawnybob

[pothole]

Blimey Stix it is a very vague question !! At the end of the day we all enter tournies to win, but there comes a time when you begin to realize in the late stages that preservation of bankroll and a minimal return are pretty much what's going to happen unless there is a major shift in the cards your being dealt. What you have to decide before you enter a pot at this stage is " am I going all in if I get raised or pushed with these two cards" ? If your not, don't even limp in a pot because big stacks will steal your blind every time. Close to bubble and bubble play are times when preservation of chips is crucial. Anything less than 8BBs will get called by bigger stacks and checked down hoping to put the SS out. Nothing worse than pushing with AA near the bubble and the big stack calls and sucks out.

[jacks_off4me]

Exellent post Scrawnybob. couldn't be said any better.

I dont think it is a pussy strategy at all. again we are here to help players improve so the strategy youre talking about not getting too risky - how many times have you tried stealing near the bubble and got caught up with your patns down. from the other hand- how many times have you limped from sb/checked your bb to catch a monster flop or a monster draw to gain much needed chips at that point.
at yesterdays tourney, i just sat there and watched people with 3 times chips than me go out with marginal cards at weird positions.

The key pot : i was low with chips and had about 2800. utg+1 limps sb calls and i check my
46 in the big blind (blinds 400/200)

flop comes down 2 5 7 a nuge opened ender for me and sb bets the minimum of 400 i call utg+1 calls.
turn is 7 and we all check.
river comes down 8 wohooo straight for me!
sb bets the minimum 400 i raise to 800 utg+1 folds sb calls with 10 2 .

this pot actually doubled my stack ( to 5400 ) without much risk and eventually i ended up as the runner-up at that tourney.

[khicks26]

most of the time i play to win the tournament. but it depends on my BR, what kinda tournament, what my M is at the time, and reads at the table.

in this situation you have good cards. lets say KQ, A10, 77 or less. with someone all-in here. most of the time this is a fold for me. IMO you don't want to call an all in with just good cards.

that said, if its folded to me in this situation, and i think that i can get the rest of the table to fold. then sometimes i will go all in.

[LombardiStix]

Blimey Stix it is a very vague question !!

THINK OUTSIDE OF YOUR CARDS.

It is vague because I don't want the philosophy of the question to be bogged down with odds of a particular hand. S-Bob had a great post because he owned up that he will play tighter and get into the money before making a push.

I'm asking about your overall philosophy. At this point in the tournament your goals have a direct effect on your play. Is your goal/philosophy "be more patient and come out ahead" or is it "gather chips make a run at the win"? There's no guarrantee either way...

[scrawnybob]

hi

good thread and good to have some great contributions from everyone ;-)

forgot to mention that obviously this would be my approach at this sort of cusp of the bubble situation with a middling average type stack - ie. nothing exceptional either way

before this point of a tournament I also have to admit that I tend to have a bit more of a gun-ho approach as I'd really prefer to be going for a high finish or not at all ... so I'd actually probably take more risks in the middle stages because I DONT want to just finish in the money I want to try to build up a shot at the big money or go out earlier trying

but by the stage outlined ie. sniffing a profit of some sort - my strategy would change to being realistic about would could be achieved v what probably wont be achieved without a nice dose of luck added

hope that makes sense

cheers scrawnybob

[jacks_off4me]

definition of vague- not clearly expressed : stated in indefinite terms not having a precise meaning not clearly defined, grasped, or understood not clearly felt or sensed...

As Phil Laak sais: "at the game of holdem poker....." lol it's always depends.

before the bubble the answer is "be more patient and come out ahead" bacause the bubble is usually after several hours of play. you dont wanna be wasting them for nothing!
and if you managed to get itm then its "gather chips make a run at the win".

[witl69]

i have to say for myself 100% sure that I would have to go for it because to me it isnt so much about the money , as long as I got money to play on I dont really care all that much and to me 2nd place is still just the first looser so I definately would have to go for it instead of just trying to float mny way in for a few bucks

[derringer007]

Vague is an understatement stix. That is a long time playing to just throw it all away on a unsure marginal pocket, be patient and wait till you have the nuts. I always play to win but to achieve this you must get to ITM and the final table first and then go for the win.
"Be More Patient And Come Out Ahead"