$22 NLHE FTOPS Mini #20, awkward spot w 8-8 in BB

[Poker Orifice]

FTOPS Mini #20 Awkward stack size with 8-8 on BB, EP limp, MP raises 4x… ???

This was a hand I had in the Ftops Mini #20 that I felt was an awkward spot for a couple of reasons, one being stack size as I’m not deep enough to be getting implied odds to set mine and too deep to just come over the top with a shove (3-betting here would be nearly half my stack and a smaller 3-bet would be over a third of my stack so why not just shove). Also we are on the BigBlind and will be playing the hand out of position if we just ‘call’ and will likely be in a 3-way pot (see below.. ‘read’ on Player 1’s previous play).

A lot of the play at this point has been uncontested preflop raises & more so raises folding to 3-bets or calling & shoving or betting flop (depending upon stack size involved). My image has been very tight and last showdown I had 3-bet in LP w AA, calling a 4-bet shove and having AA hold over QQ.
For this hand though, ‘Player 2’ has just sat down on my table 3 hands prior and has no read onthe table playing but jumped right in aggressively as this is the 2nd hand of 3 he’s played now (also, I’ve seen him play in the past and know he’s a LAG-tard 30/17/3 with poor results ie. 260-mtt’s ROI -51% avg.buyin $11).
Player 1 is a weak player (plays Pass/Agg) and is capable of limping in with big hands. They’ve been limping a lot (they seem to limp their entire range.. AA > 7-6s from any position 23/4/2.2).
Player 1 has Limp/Call preflop many times but is very transparent post-flop.
They also have poor results with 379-mtt’s, ROI -54%, avg.buyin $5.

There are some good players on the table also (ie. ‘4everunknown’… a reg. in larger buyins and ranked quite high). Names of players in the hand have been blocked to protect their anonymity.

Hero has - 13.8 M, 30bb’s
Approx. 1500 players left, with around 1,000 getting paid.


Full Tilt Poker Game #12237363348: MiniFTOPS Event #20 (84243736), Table 546 - 170/340 Ante 25 - No Limit Hold'em - 16:32:36 ET - 2009/05/15
Seat 1: 4everunkown (17,820)
Seat 2: dchendes (16,376)
Seat 3: bukithepro (4,690)
Seat 4: Hero (10,213)
Seat 5: Sharkinapond (8,932)
Seat 6: Teki1986 (4,030)
Seat 7: terribleone000 (20,239)
Seat 8: Player-1 (18,900)
Seat 9: Player-2 (25,046)
4everunkown antes 25
dchendes antes 25
bukithepro antes 25
Hero antes 25
Sharkinapond antes 25
Teki1986 antes 25
terribleone000 antes 25
Player-1 antes 25
Player-2 antes 25
bukithepro posts the small blind of 170
Hero posts the big blind of 340
The button is in seat #2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Hero [8d 8h]
Sharkinapond folds
Teki1986 has 15 seconds left to act
Teki1986 folds
terribleone000 folds
Player-1 calls 340
Player 2 raises to 1,360
4everunkown folds
dchendes folds
bukithepro folds
Hero has 15 seconds left to act
Hero has requested TIME

….????...... what do we do?

Okay.. so I'm not looking for folks to let me know how to play... but am hoping to hear some opinions on how they'd play here in this spot. Hoping this generates a bit of thinking and discussion.
I'll post results after leaving this up for a bit.
Thanks in advance for your comments.

[Poker Orifice]

Still no replies????

[scrawnybob]

hi orifice

just read it through and it looks like roughly 10% of your stack to call - personally I like pockets 88 or higher and would be tempted to call and see the flop

but Im sure there are some much better answers out there ;-)

cheers scrawnybob

[jacks_off4me]

1. there's no shame in folding.

sometimes you just don't feel right with your hand... at yesterdays tourny i got pocket kings in middle position, raise with them and win the pot. the next hand it was KQo and again the pot was mine while the third hand - 10's utg just didnt feel right (still raised and lost the pot off course)

2. I'd also probably just call like Bob. the spot is indeed not that easy.

3. you probably reraised something winning the pot eventually, and going to justify your move

[Poker Orifice]

Hi,
I put this HH past a few MTT regs. and the replies I got were genearlly to raise to isolate the light 3-bettor (but due to being out of position we need to raise slightly more than if we had position on villain).

What makes this spot awkward is our stack size.... we have 30bb's which is bigger than a typical re-steal stack size of say 14-25bb's but not really big enough to flat & set mine, especially out of position.
If we 3-bet 3.5x villains raise, we're obviously pot-committed and we're not really leaving ourself enough behind to shove any flop with.. which would then lead us to thinking that we 3-bet a bit smaller (2.5-2.6x) and shove any flop.
^^
this was the general response I received.... that and "Just shove it in here,... you need to take any potential +EV spots you can find"... "you must be willing to die in order to live"

Turns out I wished I'd shoved (although not really relevant to our initial decision)... flop came a paired flop.... small bet by early position limer (weak line... Limp/Call.. fire out small probe bet??... and aggro-spew-tard floats & then takes it away on the turn.

The pair on the flop??... yah... 8-8-x, .... I would've flopped quads here, LOL....ahhh!! Unfortunately no other good spots came after that, managed to pick off the blinds only one more time, then with a stack size of around 11bb's in CO I shove preflop w ATo and am looked up by SB who has AQs which holds for the win.... sigh....

Been watching ALOT of MTT training vids. since, many of them focusing on 3-betting & spots for 3-betting light on deeper stacks. It has helped to change my viewpoint ALOT and is giving me many more oppurtunities for accumulating chips (damn... I never knew how many of the top players out there are 3-betting light,.. sure helps for getting the monsters paid off... and for disguising our hands when we do get flatted while holding something like T-9s, 9-7s, 8-7o, etc. (obviously hoping to not get flatted here but when we do while in position and we do get an oppurtunity to either outplay villain postflop, or we hit the flop hard,.. it sure can be a nice payoff when we stack villain with our 2pr, flush, or straight vs. his AA, KK, QQ, or TPTK).

[LombardiStix]

this was the general response I received.... that and "Just shove it in here,... you need to take any potential +EV spots you can find"... "you must be willing to die in order to live"

I agree. You know if you are involved in this hand with your stack size, whoever you are up against will bet anything on the flop. It would probablly work if the flop stays low and you could pick up an easy double up, but either way you know your chips are probablly goin in. So you could call leaving you with a pretty big stack and you would get to see the flop and make a more educated decision, but If you think you're well ahead... with your table image, take it down. I know the new LAG guy hasn't spent enough time on the table to pick up your table image, but the only raise he would respect is the AI. Anything else and I think he's calling with any crap because he has a smaller stack isolated. So like the quote above... if you are going to raise it should be to raise it all.

Stix

[hojediade]

With all infos you gave us on your opponents, i would have tend to call the raise with any medium pair and risk 1/10 of my stack to see the flop.
But in truth, it all depends on your own thought and read. Every move was good to me, but the one that could win the pot PF is probably the best one.

[Poker Orifice]

Oddly enough I have a simliar spot this evening in the FtopsMini#1 ($22) buyin.. again... and again with 8-8.. and again on around 23bb's (a bit smaller stack this time).

Utg limps (a monster stack, loosecallingstation.... has played over 1,000 mtts on Fulltilt and has ROI+4% with avg.buyin of ~$90 (I've seen them play before a few times)) MP1 raises it up 4.5x... I'm in MP2 with 8-8 on ~23bb's and we're past the bubble and ITM.
There's also a SS on the BB who is 100% priced in to call w any two.
What do I do???

I decide to fold and look for a better spot (I have two tight players to my left who have been respecting my raises... and a Lag to my right who has also folded to my resteals).


Later on... I pick up a decent pot. Then with around 25bb again I wake up wtih AA UTg.. I raise 2.3x (stand. at this level).. and BB 3-bets me. Tough decision... 4bet shove to perhaps appear weak (he has me covered.. but just barelyl).. OR just call to try & trap (all the money is going in on the flop if I just call... but by calling/trapping I'm hoping to induce a flop shove by villain and will get it in no matter what falls).
I figured my flat of the 3bet would perhaps appear stronger than the 4bet shove so I opted to shove. Villain goes into the tank and then finally folds.. I show the AA (not for ego but for table image... I'm hoping my future steals continue to be respected).
New donkey comes onto the table... his first play.. EP raises... MP 3-bets quite large, new donkey flats the big 3-bet in SB O.O.P.... with A3o. ..whoa!!! He becomes my nemesis.... but also pays me off (He insists on coldcalling every preflop raise of mine... and defends BB 100% of time... insane... he has obv. been lucky as he is super loose and has MTT ROI -96% (<<<< not good, lol).

Sitting in good shape, marginally above average stack with just over 1,000 players left (top 2,160 got paid out of 16,750 entrants) I lose 3 hands in one orbit to go out of the tourney. (my AQ HJ rs gets shoved back on by BB on ~ 11bb's w AJ.... I call... AQ doesn't win... wahhhh)... (folded around to SB who is sitting on 10bb's... I have him covered in BB w 17bb's - - - SB shoves..... now my read on SB.. decent player.. & should/could be shoving pretty wide here... I look down at KJ.. go into timebank and then make a pretty ez call at this stage of the game,... he flips over QTo.... and T hits on the river... argh!!).... (w 7bb's in MP3... I get KQs... I shove, HJ flats me with ATo, I hit a Q, but then he hits an A...and a T.. lol.. BOOM!).

GL on the tables!!