180 man - 20 table - top 18 cash

[ND1991]

So I am curious what people think of this format? I seem to be making top 30 quite a bit, but you need to crack final table to make any money and to do that you need to win a race or two along the way from what I can see.

I think getting to 30 is good, but 19 and 180 are basically the same. So curious what people think of this format.

Stats are below for a 29th place finish.

Hands:

A8o - lost 60
73o -
JJ - won 250
55 - won 1500
JTo - won 1500
64o -
QTo - bb lost 20
KQs - sb won 480
KTo -
82o -
K4s - won 30
K4s - won 30
T9o -
KTo -
73o - bb lost 20
T4s - sb lost 10
65o -
72s -
T4o -
K9o -
J8s -
T2o -
T9s - bb lost 30
52s - sb lost 15
KK - won 195
86o -
QJo - won 285
QQ - lost 975 - raised 4x pre-flop, two callers, board 899, small stack pushed
KQo - won 255
98o -
74o - bb won 135
T5o - sb lost 15
86o -
42o -
K2o -
A2o -
AQo - won 75
75o -
AQo - lost 200
76o - bb lost 50
T5o - sb lost 25
Q8s -
J6o -
Q8o -
K6o -
Q20 -
65o -
J7o -
Q7o - bb lost 50
Q9o - sb lost 25
T9s - won 75
K6o -
86o -
97o -
53o -
62s -
QJo - bb lost 200
KJo - sb won 100
J5o -
32o -
T5o -
T4s -
53o -
AJo - won 150
55 - bb lost 100
96o - sb lost 200
AKs - lost 1465 - raised 4x pre-flop - one caller - flop 878 - he checks - continuation 900 - he pushes 1050 - i am now pot committed - he has 99 - no help
72o -
QTo -
T9o -
82o -
KTo -
T7o -
99 - bb won 300
43o - sb lost 75
A7o -
AKo - won 525
Q3o -
A5o -
42o -
93o -
KQo - bb lost 150
QTo - sb lost 75
K9o -
K5o -
A6o -
Q8o -
J4o -
KK - won 1418
T5o -
AJo - sb won 200
85s -
Q4o -
K2o -
AKs - won 500
64o -
Q7o -
Q5o -
63o - bb lost 200
44 - sb lost 100
T7o -
KQo -
JTo - won 575
------------------25 ante starts
J7s - lost 25
JTs - lost 25
T6o - lost 25
96o - lost 25
J8o - bb lost 275
J8o - sb lost 150
99 - won 525
KQs - won 525
A8o - lost 525
53o - lost 25
A5o - lost 25
62o - bb lost 275
92o - sb lost 150
Q4s - lost 25
T3o - lost 25
KQs - lost 25
Q3o - lost 25
72o - lost 25
T5s - bb lost 275
Q2o - sb lost 175
J7o - lost 25
54o - lost 25
96s - lost 25
Q3s - lost 25
Q2o - lost 25
J5o - bb lost 325
82o - sb lost 175
J3o - lost 25
54s - lost 25
J8o - lost 25
52o - lost 25
Q8s - lost 25
Q3o - lost 25
K8o - lost 25
64s - bb lost 325
A8o - sb lost 175
Q6o - lost 25
82o - lost 25
AKo - lost 925 - raised 3x pre-flop - one caller - flop 946 - i check oop - he bets - i fold
------------------50 ante starts
K7s - lost 50
A6o - lost 50
AJo - lost 2593 and out -- pre-flop push and one caller with KK

As always any advice welcome. I know this was not perfectly played, but think it was solid. However, missed the cash so definitely room for improvement.

Thanks!

145 hands played and saw flop:
- 2 times out of 17 while in small blind (12%)
- 4 times out of 16 while in big blind (25%)
- 13 times out of 112 in other positions (12%)
- a total of 19 times out of 145 (13%)

Pots won at showdown - 3 out of 7 (43%)
Pots won without showdown - 19

[ND1991]

Attempt #2 -- The pain of the bubble. One incredible suck out by me and I made the most of it only to bubble out in 19th out of 180 *sigh*

Stats are below for a 19th finish.

Hands:

52s -
52s - bb lost 20
J6o - sb lost 10
A6o - lost 175
T20 -
K9s - won 100
52o -
T8o -
76o -
Q2o -
T6o - bb lost 20
77 - sb won 40
A8o -
42s -
A6o -
K2o -
Q4o -
97o -
J7o -
AKo - bb lost 240
83o - sb lost 15
K6o -
A8o - won 75
63o -
53o -
AKo - won 23
64s -
A4o - bb lost 30
Q5o - sb lost 15
A2o - won 135
J6o -
K2o -
97o -
T5s -
QTs - won 125
A8s - won 425
93o - bb lost 50
K9o - sb lost 25
J2o -
J4o -
Q6o -
J5s -
K8s -
A2s - lost 50
J5o - bb won 50
99 - sb lost 300
Q4o -
k2o -
85o -
T4o -
85o -
K4s -
QJo -
KK - bb won 300
97o - sb lost 50
62s -
53o -
A5o -
QJo -
K7o -
QJo -
A2s - lost 100
A5s - bb lost 100
42o - sb lost 50
A7o -
J9o -
KK - won 150
J6o - bb lost 100
A7s - sb won 100
84o -
84o -
83o -
76s -
J8s -
J4s -
64s - bb lost 150
AA - sb won 150
74o -
93o -
T2o
J8o -
T6o -
99 - won 1060
J9o - bb lost 150
86o - sb lost 75
75o -
ATo - won 3033
82o -
A6o -
A4s - won 225
J5o -
K7o -
AQo - bb lost 150
72o - sb lost 75
52o -
62o -
85o -
T4o -
54o -
K5o -
Q4s - bb lost 200
32o - sb lost 100
ATo - won 500
K7o -
66 - won 300
K3o -
A5o -
T7s -
Q3s - bb lost 200
42o - sb lost 100
ATo -
KJo -
J8s -
T5s -
K7o -
Q2o -
JJ - won 300
K5s - bb lost 664
T4s - sb lost 100
------------------------- 25 ante starts here
KJo - lost 25
T4s - lost 25
87o - lost 25
54o - lost 25
A5s - won 980
T6s - lost 25
53o - bb lost 275
Q8o - sb lost 150
83o - lost 25
T7s - lost 25
J2o - lost 25
Q7o - lost 25
AKo - won 1050
85s - lost 25
A5o - lost 25
KJo - bb lost 275
42s - sb won 400
T7o - lost 25
95o - lost 25
A2o - lost 25
J7s - lost 25
54o - lost 25
J8o - bb lost 275
82o - sb lost 150
K7o - won 550
Q4o - lost 25
K8o - lost 25
A6o - lost 25
A2o - lost 25
QJo - bb lost 325
Q6o - sb lost 175
A3s - lost 25
92o - lost 25
KQs - won 650
93o - lost 25
K2o - lost 25
T6o - lost 25
97o - lost 25
53o - bb lost 325
KJo - sb lost 175
JJ - won 1525
T2s - lost 25
83o - lost 25
KQo - lost 25
63o - lost 25
82o - lost 25
K8o - bb lost 325
T5o - sb lost 175
62o - lost 25
------------------------- 50 ante starts here
KTo - lost 50
Q6o - lost 50
K6o - lost 50
T4o - lost 50
Q9s - lost 50
42s - bb lost 450
T2o - sb lost 250
KTs - won 2100
K7o - lost 50
AJo - won 1700
A8s - lost 50
76o - lost 50
T6s - bb lost 450
A5s - sb lost 250
52s - lost 50
AQo - won 1800
T3s - lost 50
K7o - lost 50
T9s - lost 50
A4s - lost 50
Q6o - lost 50
Q6o - bb lost 450
42s - sb lost 250
Q4o - lost 50
74o - lost 50
Q4o - lost 50
QTs - lost 1850
22 - lost 50
64o - lost 50
KQo - won 1250
KTo - bb lost 650
J2o - sb lost 350
QQ - won 1250
85s - lost 50
43o - lost 50
Q9o - lost 50
K2o - lost 50
K5s - lost 50
43s - bb lost 650
Q3o - sb lost 350
K4o - lost 50
65o - lost 50
Q5o - lost 50
K6o - lost 50
K3s - lost 50
52o - lost 50
53o - bb lost 650
A7o - sb lost 350
KJs - won 1250
63o - lost 50
96o - lost 50
J7s - lost 50
96s - lost 50
-------------------------75 ante starts here
A3o - lost 75
Q8o - bb lost 875
K3o - sb lost 475
98o - lost 75
42o - lost 75
A8o - lost 75
33 - lost 75
A3o - bb lost 875
65o - sb lost 475
63o - lost 75
42o - lost 75
K4o - lost 75
A4o - lost 75
K4s - bb lost 875
J4o - sb lost 475
Q9o - lost 2982 and out on the bubble

I played the Q9 because I had the button and the bb was the other short stack, unfortunately the sb called and got runner runner after I hit Q on flop to knock me out.

237 hands played and saw flop:
- 1 times out of 30 while in small blind (3%)
- 6 times out of 30 while in big blind (20%)
- 12 times out of 177 in other positions (7%)
- a total of 19 times out of 237 (8%)

Pots won at showdown - 5 out of 9 (56%)
Pots won without showdown - 25

[ND1991]

Looking for any and all advice.

Do I need to take more chances?

Do I need to play bigger hands slower hoping to get more chips?

Do I need to open up on the hands I am playing with?

Should I try to limp in or call more pre-flop raises?

I feel I am playing fairly strong, and always getting near the money. These two hurt since they were so close.

As always any and all comments welcome!

[kingmotan]

I don't think I should be giving advices but you seem so tight at seeing the flop. I mean u saw a flop 8% of the time. For me that sounds really tight, even in a 9 handed game.
My percentage is usually at 13-15%. I'm not saying that's good but... 1 flop out of 30 times in SB ?! cmon, loosen up a little

[ND1991]

It was 13% in the one I finished 29.

If you could browse through the hands and recommend some of the ones you would have played? I am not afraid to mix it up and get chips in the pot, but I prefer to do it with better starting hands.

I am trying to figure out what % of hands make up range.

Thanks again :-)

[LombardiStix]

It is kinda hard to come totally out of context and see two cards and whether or not they are suited to pick a particular hand to mix it up on. I like to mix it up with 67, 78 or 89 suited from time to time. When I say mix it up... I mean it. I don't limp into the flop I come out raising if I'm meaning to mix it up. It has a lot to do with the table image I want to posses. It is also hard to read the range of your hands because I can't really tell what your stack is at any given time. Stack relative to blinds is a big indicator of hand selection (in my book which I haven't wrote).

So much is dependent.

[Poker Orifice]

"It Depends". When you're playing the 180's it depends ALOT upon the blind structure. If it's the $2's on Stars they are TURBOs which will affect your play greatly. If it's the $4's they have a slower structure allowing for more play, typically lasting 3hrs.

Here's an article by ShaunDeeb about playing the 180's.. (aka TedsFishFry on Fulltilt)

Alright been trying to figure out a way to write this well,with enough helpful information for anyone who's looking to either add in 180s to their MTT daily routine or switch to them from SNGs or cash games.


Alright here are just same basic reasons why you should play 180:

A Volume, you can't beat the frequency these tourneys run during the peak hours you can get 2-3 at the 10 and 20 level while 5-6 at the 4 level

B Time commitment, I would guesstimate the time till the end of a 180 to be an avg around 3 hours 20min which is 2-3 times shorter than your avg tourney with 15min blind levels.

C Payouts, They pay 10% but it is very top heavy 10-18th get double the buyin while 1st gets 54 times the buyin.

D Preparation, The good thing about the 180s field size being capped at such a low number is you get to be invovled many endgame situations. That means when you start getting to the FT of 5fig+ for first tourneys you won't be such a beginner at that stage.

E. The players, You get such a wide range of players that you get much stronger as a player against the spectrum of fish as well as mtt experts. This will help a player learn how to adjust to table conditions as often you are moving tables and needed to readjust and reconnect with the flow of the table

F. Cost, you can't really beat 180s for their low buyins which are great for anyone trying to build up a roll and with the 3 different levels as well as the increasingly popular 50/90s you can grind out a nice roll very quickly to move on to bigger tourneys

Alright now for some strategy tips I will try to hit most of the important moves and ideas behind each move you make. I would recommend that if you don't have pokertracker and pahud to go and get them since some advice I give you you need that for the information. Also, one thing I like to do is every time the blind levels change to try to figure out where you want to be stack wise etc by the next level. So I will break this down by blind levels for 180s.

Level 1 10/20
Now, everyone stars with 75bbs don't be shy with your strong hands a big mistake I see people make is open raising 5-6x with 10s or AQo etc hands that are most likely to be best PF but are rarely hands you are very confident post flop with. I would advise making some over limps with SCs small pairs etc, this is the only stage where it's not a big mistake to be passing PF. Most likely the players you will be playing many pots against are the fish and weaker players since many of the better players are prob multitabling and thus folding a lot of marginal hands. So seize this great time to take chips off those who will give them up easily. I am not afraid of big pots on any hand because remember it's a 180 and another one prob is 1/3rd of the way registered.

Stack goal 2000

Level 2 15/30
Alright now you should be noticing whose been limping half the hands and prob dwindled theirs tack down to 800 and those at 1450 who haven't played a hand yet. Use that knowledge when playing hands notice what type of opp you are against and adjust. Pay attention to stack sizes too when you are against 1 of those weak players bleeding chips as you should be trying to do they prob have less chips so be keen on that when you are getting to the turn and the pot has eclipsed their stack.

Stack goal 3000

Level 3 25/50
Alright now like 1/4th of the field is gone and it's going to get tougher but hopefully you were able to win lots of small pots by raising the weak limpers and c-betting or got lucky to stack someone. Players aren't as deep anymore and expect a few of the tight players to open up a little more at this level. There still will be plenty of spots to take a flop vs one of the weak players who hopefully doubled up like you so you can be 60bb deep with him and hopefully win a monster pot. Be warry a lot of PF 3bets start to commit people. Also notice the stack sizes to your left

Stack goal 3500

Level 4 50/100

Alright this is when it starts to switch to less postflop play and more raise/shoving so adjust your PF opening range to hands that do better with short stacks AIPF. Again I echo look at stack sizes when you raise 3x which should be your standard open with no limpers ask yourself what do you do if player X shoves or if he raises half his stack etc. Ask yourself those questions before you raise. It may help you make a better decision if it's worth it to try to steal from that position. Also, around this level you prob will be down to half the field in a 4 and 10 and prob 100 left in a 20.

Stack goal 4000 and a 5min break to focus on other tourneys

Level 5 75/150
2nd hour now things are def starting to kick in gear hopefully you are slightly above avg stack right now as it gives you more breathing room as for next 15min you will battle those nits who've folded their way down to 600 chips. The only postflop play you should be apart off is when you raise and someone calls you. Most of your pots for now on you should be the aggressor makes it much more effective. Also, don't be afraid to shove your stack in there if a squeeze appears or someone won't leave your BB alone. Don't shy from races at this stage they are necessary in tourneys even in these middle stages

Stack goal 4500

Level 6 100/200
This is actually my favorite level in a 180 due to the fact most of the other regulars like to wait till antees kick in to start stealing and restealing a lot, so while they are waiting 15 more min I start to really have fun. The fields have thinned by now and the avg player left is much stronger but still plenty of soft spots by now you should have a good idea of each player at your table and with pt and pahud using that info and extrapolating your plans before going into a hand. As effective stakcs keep getting shorter the distance a hand goes until all the money gets in obv gets shorter most pots are taken down on the flop if you even see one.

Stack goal 5500

[Poker Orifice]

contd.
Level 7 100/200/25
Ante time a decent sized ante for an online tourney being 1/8th a bb so most pots are going to be 525 before cards are dealt. there will be plenty of sub 10bb stacks right now and you need to be careful when you open 3x you are getting odds against most players who are under 10bb to call their shove unless they have been really tight. I personally don't like to steal that much at this level as most players expect you too and they also will be stealing as well. So I would suggest restealing more from those multitabling regulars who open in LP when folded to them. Depending on how deep you are shoving and a 3bet are fine. It's also time to start defending your BB more. As most of you should know if it's folded to you in the SB you should be raising/shoving almost any 2 depending on effective stacks. That is the position I feel like I keep my stack afloat the most either restealing from a LP opener or stealing from the BB to get those coveted antes.

Stack goal 6000

Level 8 200/400/25

Alright this is the inflection point/level of a 180 everyone is forced into short stack mode as rarely will 2 people with more than 20bbs collide. There are prob 40-50 left so avg stack is under a M of 7 and also about half the stacks at the table will prob be under 10bbs. Knowing that you should often be shoving when first in even if you have 16bb stack if those to the left of you are under 10. Also remember to go by effective stacks not just yours or theirs. Restealing is harder at this blind level as very few people are deep enough to raise/fold. So expect your shoves to get called more as people are getting more desperate to double even if they have to take the worst of it.

Stack goal 8000

Break #2 getting very close to the money now start to figure out whose playing to win and whose playing to cash

Level 9 300/600/50
Alright now the field is getting short ITM bubble is approaching and the avg stack is around 15bbs but there probably is a gigantic stack hopefully yours so as with the previous level about half your table is under 10bbs make note of those who are short and why they got short. You should be stealing less from the guys whose short because he was aggressive and got caught stealing and/or make a resteal and got called. While stealing from the guy whose short who has been folding a lot even when folded to him in LP and is def waiting for solid hands to continue with only. Remember at this stage at a 9 handed table theres 1350 in the pot so try to take that down whenever you can where ever you are.

Stack goal 10000

Level 10 400/800/50
As the skill level of the avg 180 player is increasing like it is lately the bubble has been bursting later and later and I've noticed a lot lately this is the level where we get down to 20 people a lot. Remember when this happens your table is now 6-7 handed therefore your opening ranges even from UTG should be much wider. Also, notice that often what you are doing others at the table are trying to do as well so try to knock them down to where they aren't a formidable foe and you can easily call their shoves getting over 2 to 1 therefore they can't push as lightly since they know they have 0 FE. I always try to punish those I fear by attacking them and their stack because the shorter they are the easier/cheaper it is for me to take a shot to knock them out. Hopefully by the end of this level you are top 3 in chips and now down to final 2 tables and ITM.

stack goal 15000

Level 11 600/1200 75
Alright this is a bigger jump than most players realize now the game has truly become pushbotting when effective stacks under 10bb and there are very few flops seen where both players aren't all in. Since often with this level you are just ITM and prob playing 7-8 handed still don't be too aggro and give away chips now that people are in the money they are going to loosen up and go for first more likely than earlier. So tighten up while they loosen up.

Stack goal 20000

Level 12 800/1600/75
Alright this is often the blind level for Ft bubble your table will be 5 handed now with some decent sized stacks prob a few 25k stacks prob a 40k stack and a few 10k stacks. You should be opening any chance you can get unless getting restolen from a lot. You are trying to win these remember 54x the buyin for 1st place so every chance to pickup chips count.

stack goal 30000

Alright if you've made it this far hopefully you got some firepower to start working your way to the top. You have 5 min to get your gameplan for FT ready

Level 13 1000/2000/100
Notice at this level the blinds are large but the ante is just 1/10th a SB also be wary live and online of the antein relation to the BB it should effect how often you are opening. By now you are at the FT remember this is a constant bubble so abuse the middle stacks at all chances. You are there to win they are there to fight for 2nd. Remember you are most likely the best player at the table you have more weapons than anyone else.

Stack goal 50000

Level 14 1500/300/150
Alright this level I am going to use to give you some ways how to play a shortstack which often endgame you will end up having due to either a bad beat or a call getting proper odds. You should be restealing PF with 11-15bbs with decent hands depending on opener, when 7-10 stop and go is your most deadly weapon. Also when 20bbs you can do whats called a go and go where you raise about 30-40% of your stack PF OOP and stick the rest in on any flop.

Stack goal 75000

Level 15 2000/4000/200
Alright some tourneys are done by this level while others are still 2-3 handed this is where the most crucial point of your ROI comes from. The difference between a 1st and a 2nd is 18x the buyin so you are playing for more than some people realize in the spectrum of the buyin. Be aggressive 90% of the time neither of you have a real hand make him go on his heels whenever you can. Don't get too discouraged if you get this far and don't win because getting here is a goal in it's self and now that you've done it a few times your shorthanded and endgame will be much more solid as I alluded to earlier in the post for when you get to fts of tourneys with 10k+ for first.


Alright some other things about 180s what can be expected from them. They 180s do give good TLB scores I don't have the link off hand for a calculator it's a favorite on my other comp but I'll edit that in later. Off the top of my head a 4/180 gives 218, a 10 gives 255, and a 20 gives 309.


ROI numbers are asked a lot of what a good player should be making when I responded to that question 3 months ago my answer was quite different that what it is now because the avg player has improved but they still have many leaks and ways for you to abuse. I'd expect the top 2-3% of players could expect to make about 130% ROI in the 4/180s over a decent sample size. 110% for the 10/180s is what prob the top players could make though I'm sure if a mtt expert got into them they could easily hit 150-200 but thankfully they don't waste their time playing so low. As for 20s I'd say a good number of players are making 100% ROI. Now for a proper sample size I would say 250 at any level but obv the more the better judge even though some of your games may be from a time when they are softer.

Also, don't just rely in PAHUD if you notice something odd either a line or a betting pattern tell make a note of it so you will have it in the future. Part of the small fields of 180s is you see the same players often so they are prob taking notes on you so you should be doing the same.


Any other questions more specific comments you have about 180s ask and I will have a mod edit them into the original post. Remember this is a beginners guide to 180s this is just breaking the ice there is much more in depth thought at times during each hand but that is too complex to put into words most of the time

[Poker Orifice]

Here's another decent 180plyr. SNG article in two parts... writtten by a game named "Mark" (sorry Mark... I don't have more info. in regards to identifying yourself or your strategy post.... but I tried).

Poker Stars 180 Player SNGs Part #1 – Facts and Figures

** Updated For 2008 ** Comprehensive Guide To Poker Stars’ 180 SNGs
Including Payouts, Buy-Ins, Blinds And Time Taken



Pokerstars 180 Player Sit N Go Tournaments – Update For Late 2008



Since the original article was written in 2007 there have been some changes to the Stars 180 Sit N Goes. The $10+$1 180s disappeared for a while, then came back – and the Turbo $12 / 180s took their place on the tournaments front page. This rewrite addresses the new state of the 180-person sit and goes… which are still a very profitable way to grow your online poker bankroll.



Full Tilt Poker have also introduced 180’s – these fill the buy-in gaps left by Stars with a $2+20c tournament and an hourly $8+80c (which runs regardless of whether the maximum 180 players register). These are covered in a separate article on Full Tilt Poker 180 Player Tournaments. (links to Full Tilt 180s).





Poker Stars 180 Player SNG Tournaments – FAQ

The Poker Stars 180 Player Sit N Go Tournaments have increased in popularity greatly over recent months. These are labeled as SNGs as there is no scheduled start time – they simply start when full. In reality they play more like small Multi-table tournaments and are a great way for players to gain experience in mid to late game MTT situations.



This article looks at the facts and figures for Pokerstars 180 Player SNGs. Part #2 to follow will look at SNG strategy for these games and look at opponents tendencies during the different blind levels.



Firstly here are a few facts and figures concerning the Poker Stars 180 Player SNGs.

How Much Do They Cost?

There are a total of 6 buy-in levels available, split between Turbo and Standard blind levels:



Standard (15 Minute) blind levels: $4+40c, $10+$1 and $20+$2



Turbo (5 minute) blind levels: $2+20c, $11+$1 and $33+$3



3 of these are available on the main ‘current tournaments’ list on the main Poker Stars tournaments tab – ensuring that they fill quickly. The $2+20c, $10+$1, and $33+$3 can be found under the SNGs à Multi-Table tab and are somewhat slower to fill.

How Often Do They Run?

During peak times there are 3 to 5 starting per hour at the $20 level and 9 to 15 at the $4 and $12 levels. The other buy-ins are slower to fill as they are not so easy to find – expect 3 to 5 an hour maximum during peak times. Reduce the numbers running outside of weekends and US evenings (note: EU evenings are seeing more traffic since the original version of this article).

How Long Do They Take?

You should allow for between 3 and 4 hours per tournament for the non-turbo versions and just over 2 hours for the turbos, obviously you will need to ensure you have the time available to reach the final table before signing up.

What Are The Payout Structures?

The top 18 get paid, 10th to 18th place receive double their buy-in while the winner receives 57 times the buy in. The final table payout for the $4+40c level is as follows.



What About The Quality Of The Opposition?

This varies from very weak recreational players to low-stakes ‘pro’ players who use these tournaments as a means of building a bankroll. The generally poor quality of the opposition make the 180 person SNGs a profitable opportunity to gain MTT experience. Expect particularly weak opponents in the $10 and below 180s and only marginally better in the $20+$2 and $33+$3.

What Return On Investment Can A Good Player Expect to Make?

This, as always, depends on many factors including having a large enough sample size to draw conclusions from and how many tables are played simultaneously. The following are estimates for various skill levels of players.



Top 5% Skill Group vs Opposition: 120% ROI +

Top 20% Skill Group: 80% to 100% ROI +

Above Average Player (non specialist) 40% to 50% ROI +

[Poker Orifice]

and here is Part 2,.. Strategy Tips for playing the 180's

The first article in this series covered the facts and figures for the Stars 180s. Here we will look at the Strategy for 4/180s 10/180s and 20/180s on Pokerstars.

Each blind level will be discussed separately with a note on the average stack for the number of players left at each stage – there are 180 * 1500 = 270,000 chips in play. This means that the average stack at the final table is going to be 30,000 chips – this article will walk you through the stages of getting from 1500 to 30,000, the final part of this series will look at the 180 SNG Final Table.


While the standard of play varies between the 4/180 and 20/180 we are going to assume that you are comfortable against which ever opposition you choose. The errors that opponents make are broadly similar for each of the three buy-in levels.
The Starting Levels – BB20 and BB30

The first half an hour will see you faced with a wide variety of opponents. This is your opportunity to gain chips from the weaker players at the same time as assessing the stronger opponents weaknesses for use later in the game.
You start with 75 Big Blinds at level 1 and thus have the implied odds to profitably play hands such as suited connectors and small pairs. Enough of your opponents will be willing to go broke with ace-rag when the flop comes ace high to make these hands very profitable indeed.

Unlike the scheduled tournaments in which you might play another 180 man is often no more than 15 minutes from starting. Bankroll permitting this should make you more willing to push any edge early in an attempt to get a big stack.

As you approach the end of level 2 you will have noted many of the other players styles. Use this information to relieve overly tight players of their blinds and to re-raise those who are raising light and too often. The key here is to use the early stages to accumulate chips – only 18 places get paid in the 180s so folding too much waiting for those aces will not give you the required leverage to make the money.

After 30 minutes we can expect 40 players to have been eliminated – this means that the average stack will be 1928 chips.
Levels 3 and 4 – BB50 and BB100

The second half hour sees the blinds increase to 50 and then 100. Pre-flop raises are now a larger proportion of your stack. Many of the players who started tight and who have seen their stacks shrink to 1200 or less will now start to worry – and may open up their range as a result.

At this stage you should start to notice the stack sizes of your opponents more closely. In particular those players who are to your left (and so act after you do). For example if you raise and a small stack to your left pushes all-in you may be committed to the hand – that is the pot odds you are getting make calling with any raising hand profitable.

This makes speculative hands like suited connectors and small pairs less profitable when the pot is raised. Your implied odds have gone down. Remember there will always be a proportion of weak players left – those who have make up a reasonable stack by good fortune rather than good poker. Watch for those who are still raising light and re-steal from them when the opportunity arises.

By the 1st break at the end of level 4 we can expect 90 players to have been eliminated – this means that the average stack will be 3000 chips.
Levels 5, 6 and 7 – BB150, BB200 and BB200 Ante 25

At this point in the 180 SNG there will be a decided shift between post-flop play and pre-flop play. This is particularly true when there are short stacks on your table (anyone with 1200 chips or less).

Hope this helps you out.