5 percent rake v freerolls / bonuses......which would u prefer

[sos_egg_n]

Hi all,
looks to me as tho alot of sites happily give away around 35% / 50% of there rake away via bonuses affiliates or alternative promos.

I know if i paid only 5 percent rake it would hugely increase my roi from breaking even at the moment to profit and that site would be the only one i would touch.....I feelthere is only a slight edge from a decent player to a relatively poor player and that 10 percent profit for many players will be there edge which is taken from them for rake. My point is 10 percent sounds like a small amount but if a player is showing 15 % profit on prizepools from 1 table sng hes damn good but he gets 5 percent they get 10 percent.

If players on single table sit n gos were pulling between 20 and 50 percent then 10 percent is fair enough but clearly 10 percent will be all or a majority of most profitable players.

Only say as i am not interested in freerolls that work out to 1 dollar entry fee which u have to play for 8 hours or so or also dont think any 3rd party should have involvement in between supplier (pokersite) and buyer (rake payer) a simple lose all the bowlox no freebies and a simple 5 percent rake would be my preference and i would also think for any serious player would agree.

My point is 10 percent is not alot when u convert that 10 percent into ur profit percent its a Ridiculous amount.


Any one have any views???.....

[Ramster]

You should be looking to play at a site with rakeback

[scrawnybob]

hi

ramster is correct IF you are actually paying that much rake ... but to be honest 90% of players massively over estimate how much rake they think they are actually paying

Ive had players swear blind they need rakeback etc and they rake pence in a month - so totally pointless

anyhow - the other thing to consider is that without the "middle men" you want to cut out there wouldnt be any rakeback OR any content sites OR any strategy sites OR any forums

the sites themselves didnt set out giving players rakeback direct & they still dont - you have to get it via an affiliate

however some sites ARE doing things the sensible way with in house VIP / Loyalty programs which in most cases work out similar % to rakeback

(we are starting to do more Rakeback offers - but while players might think middle men dont earn they're commissions - which come from the sites NOT from the players anyhow - I would say there is mounting evidence that rakeback in its current form is bad for the poker world - it hits sites that do alot for they're commissions hard and rewards sites that dont do very much far too much IMHO)

the rewards / rakeback system needs a big overhaul and needs to be taken in house - ie. the rooms need to earn less themselves and give more back to players while site paying the "middlemen" for the valuable work we do helping increase the player traffic at good sites ... not taking more away for the "middlemen" (like forums) who do a hell of alot for their ever decreasing margin

also bear in mind that some sites VIP / Loyalty program rewards players with higher effective rakeback than other sites putting a number on it

eg. Pokerstars loyalty program I think can on low stakes and higher stakes players work out at more than equivalent of 35% rakeback (fulltilt offer 27% IF you sign via a rakeback affiliate)

we are currently moving over to offer rakeback to new signups to fulltilt - watch the forum when Ive got this sorted ... however they are total nightmare to work with as you cant more old players over & while its easy for players to think they know all about rakeback and the biz generally I can tell you none of it is half as easy as everyone thinks

to be honest if you are debating between freerolls or a lower rake being better then I dont think the amount raked on a player who even occasionally plays freerolls is going to be much

from a business POV I want player rewards including rakeback handled by the site and open to all (and retrospectively) - the current system makes it a total nightmare for sites like ours who add value to the community and provide resources but losing valuable players to soley rackback sites that cost nothing to setup and get the easy money leaving us with the much higher overheads from a smaller rev

I see your point - but dont blame middle men - demand the sites sort their bonus / rakeback / VIP programs out and pay sites like ours what we are worth for bringing them a vast range of players and not the rakeback only sites for picking off the cream for themselves - theyre motive has nothing to do with caring for players - its just how they entice the most valuable players for them

cheers scrawnybob

[sos_egg_n]

Thanks for reply bob.

My point was not aimed at affiliates but everything they put money into if they profit happily after paying all this out then y not just create 5 percent rake that to me promotes itself alot more than an affilate can.

If fulltilt stuck advert which just said 5 percent rake i personally think they would have larger player base or rake than pokerstars. This may complicate it but offer the option for players to pay additional rake which is built up for alleged FREEROLL if they like. Y not??? when they are happy to pay out at least 27 percent to something which i personally dont believe maintains profit for them y not give it back to the player which in my case would maintain my service....infact as ive said b4 i no longer play the site as a result of there affiliate scheme.

That 5 percent would turn every break even player into profitable all 5 percent profiters into 10 percenters.....That to me maintains service.

Fulltilt is the only site i can say this for but they advertise ridiculously on tv infact i thought i was watching a fulltilt documentry and that coronation street was the advert there on so much.....SO y do they need affilate??? they dont ....all they need to do is be BETTER than pokerstars lower rake does that.


PS. my main issue is not affilates but they happen to be part of what stops 10 percent rake been 5....which i genuinly believe makes a huge difference in making alot of break even / marginal players into making a worth while profit


Rgds

[scrawnybob]

hi

yep this is BTW a total snake pit for me to get into as players generally oversimplify massively ...

good case in point is for example players threads on 2+2 where they always quote the wrong figures for what affiliates get ...

just because players can get 27% rakeback does NOT mean affiliates got / get 27%+

the actual standard deal for affiliate producing player values less than 50k per month gross rake is a 1/3 rd lower than that 27% for starters ...

also they then deduct loads and loads of chargebacks / player juice (we pay for % of player bonuses and even stupid hats and crap in the shop) so that actually brings the net figure most affiliates have to work with alot less than 1/2 of what players seem to think affiliates get ...

this is why most affiliates cant afford to offer rakeback on fulltilt - they get paid less to start with and the % to offer rakeback are crazy low too

now fulltilt have changed to make it possible to offer rakeback but with a massively slashed commission - and I mean something like 1/4 of the general rates other sites pay even rakeback offering affiliates and thats before deductions which work out at around only 1/3rd of that figure

so you see very quickly this can mean an effective cut of 90% ... which is fine if your just a parasitic rakeback site getting the most valuable players by rather dubious means but if you are a forum or general or strategy site this has been around for a long time there big implication on costs which suddenly arent getting covered if rev nosedives by offering everyone and anyone rakeback and the time and costs involved in running a broad site rather than just targeting the money

one things to bear in mind is that fulltilt started allowing affiliates to promote rakeback exactly so they could try to catch up with pokerstars ... but by effectively paying alot less to the very people / sites who generate lots of mixed players for them

pokerstars is the biggest room by a big margin ... and they DONT allow affiliates to offer rakeback ... so IMHO rakeback does NOT make a room successful

they're better of paying affiliates decent money for those that do a decent job and investing in loyalty / VIP programs + lots more games + good support etc etc

90% of players dont have rakeback or even know about it ... also IMHO as a result of rakeback fulltilt has got alot tougher as there are so many more rakeback grinders ...

there are other places to play with softer competition where the increased profit would far outweigh the rake - where rakeback becomes THE priority the players will be better and harder to beat

the crucial thing is really what we get paid is between the room and affiliates and not the player -
the rooms decided the best way to reward the most effective sites was not flat rate advertising but affiliate programs - where they only pay for players and affiliates that are worth something to them

however the evolution of rakeback has blurred those lines - IMHO the sooner they all take all loyalty schemes in house and just pay us for what we do related on our performance the better

so many of the programs effectively restrict affiliates from looking after their signups its untrue - meaning players risk all sorts of dodgy manovours to get rakeback when other sites enable affiliates to look after players moving them onto rakeback to reward loyalty etc just for the sake of emailing the original affiliate and asking if its an option

its all a mess - thats the long and the short of it

do fulltilt and others need affiliates ? well one thing is for sure they wouldnt have got where they are without them ... yes TV ads do get players ...

but they made the money to afford more TV ads from online sites plugging away for them

and there are a hell of alot of players who want to know more before signing to a room - and they look to review sites and forums for that validation and trust etc

effectively the rakeback rate on fulltilt would be lowering your theortical 10% rake down to roughly 7%

pokerstars VIP program (which everyone gets) reduces rake by between 25-35% so would be effectively lowering rake to between 6.5% - 7.5%

the key thing here is EVERYONE gets the same deal on pokerstars, the affiliates get paid something worth having (although their rules have changed massively for the worse in last 2 months)

so IMHO a big part of the reason that pokerstars is the biggest site is they have a fair and inhouse rakeback / VIP program that you dont have to jump through hoops to get

to get fulltilt rakeback or any other affiliate led rakeback means you will have to follow instrcutions to the letter, make sure you havent alreayd picked up any other sites tracking, have never had an account there ...

and in order to get and keep fulltilt rakeback (only available via affiliates) you will have to deposit a min of $10 within 60 days of signing up / clicking through tracker ...

yes you read that right - IF players dont deposit $10+ within 60 days of signing up to fulltilt - they get taken OFF the affiliates tracker and fulltilt get free players ... they dont pay us and they dont pay rakeback

welcome to the pointy end of the business - this is tip of the iceberg - so IMHO affiliates running decent sites that arent just cookie cutter rakeback sites earn every last penny they get from the the poker rooms

this is a very thorny issue within the industry and I totally understand that from a very simplistic players POV rakeback etc all seems like an obviously good idea - its not quite as clear cut as that but the really really important thing is rooms need to take control of it - like pokerstars and not continue to have a half assed hash up like some sites OR say its not allowed and then turn a blind eye to iffy under the table deals etc



cheers scrawnybob

[Ramster]

hi

ramster is correct IF you are actually paying that much rake ... but to be honest 90% of players massively over estimate how much rake they think they are actually paying

Ive had players swear blind they need rakeback etc and they rake pence in a month - so totally pointless

cheers scrawnybob

I think it depends on what you call pence
I think it is better looking at it from how many BBs you pick up in rake over the week/month you play to get the rake
Personally if i 4 table for 2-3 hours a week,which i was doing before i got a rakeback deal, i earn between 7-10 BBs a week which may not be a fortune but its funds i wouldnt have without rake

I do agree with you though that it is a lot tougher now, even at the stakes i play

[PLAYFUL1]

YAH BETTER OFF PLAYING FREEROLLS VS YOUR 5% RAKEBACK.. PURE PROFIT ON FREEROLLS PLAYFUL THINKS

[Ramster]

to get fulltilt rakeback or any other affiliate led rakeback means you will have to follow instrcutions to the letter, make sure you havent alreayd picked up any other sites tracking, have never had an account there...

and in order to get and keep fulltilt rakeback (only available via affiliates) you will have to deposit a min of $10 within 60 days of signing up / clicking through tracker ...

yes you read that right - IF players dont deposit $10+ within 60 days of signing up to fulltilt - they get taken OFF the affiliates tracker and fulltilt get free players ... they dont pay us and they dont pay rakeback

I have had rakeback at FullTilt for just short of 2 months now and when i saw this about having to deposit within 60 days i contacted the affiliate i signed up with and their response was that if i hadnt made a deposit at any time even before i signed up with their rakeback deal then yes i would have to deposit or lose the deal but if i had depositted at any time even before i signed up with them for rake then i would receive rake whenever i played the 60 days were not an issue

I have had an account at FullTilt for over 3 years now and when i downloaded it it was off my own back rather than through a link/forum banner.
I dont know if i would have been able to get this deal if i was tracked to another affiliate
Maybe if others have tried to get rake and been refused they could post here and let us know

[Logan]

I have had an account at FullTilt for over 3 years now and when i downloaded it it was off my own back rather than through a link/forum banner.

I dont know if i would have been able to get this deal if i was tracked to another affiliate

So, you are saying that download Fulltilt not from a forum/link banner the first time and still could have rakeback now with a afilliate?

Can i do that?, how?

[scrawnybob]

hi

all I will say is that isnt offically right - so I wouldnt post or discuss it in the forum

I dont know or want to know what you and the affiliate have cooked up but if your signed up direct already then you cant have got rakeback legit (at least 99%) ...

thats all I'll say - I dont want you to get yourself into trouble

there is one possibility that would be legit but the vast vast majority who try that route dont get an answer and dont get it

anyway not my problem - but dont discuss it here and make your account(s) problem for yourself

the offical rules are simple ...

you cant get rakeback direct from fulltilt - there is an exception of sorts for some existing accounts but that isnt anything like consistent and 90% dont get anywhere with it

you cant get rakeback on a pre-existing account that wasnt setup as rakeback

you cant move affiliates

your affiliate cant (even if they want to) get players moved as a matter of course onto their rakeback tracker

even if that affiliate gets a rakeback offer for new signups they arent able to back date it

the system is a mess however I can assure you that alot of the current double accounts / new accounts under dubious rakeback affiliates IS getting caught out - if players are lucky they just get reverted back to their non rakeback account - if not they get both accounts closed

BTW this is NOT a topic I want to discuss at length and also not somewhere I want to encourage a list of agreived players moaning about the system on fulltilt - or other sites with setups that dont allow for adjusting for player loyalty etc

yes it sucks from many points of view, yes the system is inconsistent, yes none of us like it

but having seen other threads on this in other forums I'm not going to open the floor for everyone to moan. because it always seems to end up unfairly for affiliates to then get a battering on behalf of what is effectively a mess of the rooms creation - where we get suck in the middle between players expecting everything and the room wanting to avoid as much hastle as possible

btw I have heard that SOME players have got rakeback via a 3rd party that is sort of probably owned by fulltilt for those that originally signed via fulltilt direct - and this is hopefully where ramster got sorted ... but I also know that its a very long wait and far from guaranteed - most DONT get a response and most DONT get onto rakeback

and I also dont want to be promoting a site whos setup and reasons etc are still far from clear ... so please dont post the site name

cheers SB