Whats happening outside the USA

[Dan Abnormal]

Since us USA'ers are stuck in a Bodog, cake - Merge bubble.

How are the sits playing for the rest of the world PS and FT and I guess PS is ready to go and probably even bigger now but I havent been following. HAs FT gotta any payments out to players. And what about non use folks, is ths site still liked or is it taking a massive hit. ANd any other stories from other sites first hand from the actual players.

I know it sucks and it really sucks but from a historical standpoint. Black Friday will have its place somewhere (poker history101) who knows but one thing always amazes me for living in a free country, makes you forget how powerful government is and how quickly world like free become illegal.

ANd some of these ideas IM reading about online poker sounds as good a pot legalization laws. SOME STATES MIGHT HAVE SOME MIGHT NOT, they have to opt in, YOu live in California, u can burn all night, If florida youd go to jail for ttrafficking probably off the amount of one CA subscription. ITs amazng

Well just looking for NON USA folks online exeperiences

l

[Washerwoman]

Well, lol, the notion of freedom is obviously a perception, but for any government, its people are only as "free" as they want them to be...they will keep trying to convince you you've got it good while reducing your so-called "freedom", and always will For example, in the UK they say everyone is living longer so we don't get our pension for another 2 years or more now, depending on date of birth; soon they will be taping it to the inside of coffin lids (I don't seriously believe they would ever be that thoughtful, I'm just using this illustration to make a point here, lol. Concurrently they are telling us we are all obese, drink and smoke too much and are heading for the grave...in short, they'll tell u you don't need both your legs if it suits 'em All this because they have mismanaged their billions in tax revenue and their deficit for years and continue to do so.

Don't seem to be probs with payouts for Europeans for the moment. PokerHost is the new darling, and is a good site...like u say tho, just put in a small amount at a time and you can't come to any harm...if u win big, put in a list of names you'd like to transfer to on the site and receive Xmas cards from all your friends

[scrawnybob]

hi

I think the short version is things are not so bad - bottom line is on a global scale Black Monday has only affected total traffic by something like 20% initially but now the dust has settled the annual change (post Black Monday) is only a drop of 13-15% or there abouts (year on year)

so in short it really has not made a big difference for the rest of the world

however where it has made a big difference both actual and percieved (more so) is in the forum / community side of the poker world

in the overal scheme of things only a small number of poker players online actually join a forum and even less take part but its very much more felt by these players who discuss poker, play leagues and games with each other and have friends around the world including alot of US players

I think the only site where non US players are worried about their funds is Full Tilt and that is mostly down to scare mongering which is in danger of making it a self forfilling prophecy ... BTW US players waiting for their money better hope non US players carry on playing on FT because without the rest of the world there wont be a hope of the US players getting their cash.

Non US payments on Full Tilt are swift and normal afaiks from my own experiences and hearing from others ...

Unfortunately event had seemed to be encouraging non US players to pull out of FT but that early panic rush seems to have stopped and things are pretty much normal

Fortunately in the UK we have sensible regulation (where most of the offshore sites are considered perfectly ok) and NO tax on gambling ...

It's not ring fenced for UK only players / sites etc etc, it can't be taxed to highly on the corporate side otherwise the sites move (they have and do) ... so basically total opposite of the US approach

I dont think the US gov't will see this as a shining example and agendas in the US will drive for protectionism and tax

basically poker is still growing around the world while US players are stuck in crazy situation with gov't calling the shots

I hope they come up with something sensible and soon

cheers SB

ps. I'm not sure how well the remaining sites will be able to service the US market and there hasnt been the rush to the remaining smaller sites everyone would have expected ... maybe things will pickup in September time and maybe things will be clearer soon just how reliable the sites and processing will be post April 15th

pps. BTW other countries in Europe are not so keen on online poker etc and techincally some have bans but dont enforce it, some have bans and will (eg. Poland) others are regulating in a heavy handed way (France / Belgium / Italy) and tax it etc.

pps. however its worth noting that most of the euro countries regulation or banning is mostly likely in contravention of the EU rules on competition - so at some point afaiks they will have to at least open up within the EU

[GOIVIT]

Just a quick comment on part of SB's post:

ps. I'm not sure how well the remaining sites will be able to service the US market and there hasn't been the rush to the remaining smaller sites everyone would have expected ... maybe things will pickup in September time and maybe things will be clearer soon just how reliable the sites and processing will be post April 15th.

I for one would not even consider joining any site in today's climate and if I did, no way would I deposit any money there (considering I could). I'm sure I'm like a lot of usa players in trying to play but limit my exposure to any potential monetary loss thanks to the DOJ.

[scrawnybob]

hi

that is exactly how I feel about it GOIVIT

roughly 85-90% of the ex pokerstars / full tilt players in the US have NOT gone to the remaining US facing sites ...

IMHO why is hugely important ... trust and security have always been important but with the unknown factor of the DOJ its much more of an issue and not one the sites can actually fix IMHO

bottom line is that as much as we'd all like to think otherwise it is possible, maybe even inevitable that the DoJ has another round of seizures which would like mop up the remaining US facing options

I dont know all the sites inner financial workings but while those recently seized clearly went OTT on the processing methods - all the others will have to be bending the rules to some degree by servicing the US at all

And they are all much smaller operations who are not likely to have endless millions of extra cash floating around in non US accounts

theoretically other sites had all their player deposits covered

but it's clearly unrealistic to expect sites (especially ones with US heavy player profiles) to have $xxx million in US accounts to cover the actual transaction value of US deposits + $xx in floating US accounts in transitory funds + and equal $xxx equivalent amount just sitting in non US accounts that are not in use ready for them to write off the US accounts if seized in order to pay out US players just like that ...

PokerStars was in a very fortunate position in terms of relatively less exposure - yes they had ring fenced player funds which crucially were held in NON US accounts - Full Tilt didnt quite have the same foresight and had player balances covered but over multiple accounts in multiple countries and too much in the US ... some have called that intermingled funds but to be honest thats a bit unfair and over simplistic view of events IMHO.

but if the DOJ manages to seize US accounts and more US funds in transit then potentially there is alot more money exposed to danger than sites would calculate for

from my POV I am not happy after Black Friday to promote US facing sites without reservation - players really really need to be aware of the risks and make their own decisions on risk to reward

recap here from the blog ... here, here, here & here

It's really not a +ev proposition for me to because IMHO most US players are not rushing to find a site they are simply giving up on real money poker for the moment ...

this means the remaining US facing sites have got alot tougher games than before which simply isnt good for anyone

Some have got tougher than others as they have grown more dramatically doubling player base but with mostly grinders and at worst break even players. Others with smaller gains to their traffic and a stable sportsbook base remain comparatively fishy (Bodog)

as I have said in the blog weeks ago this in turn will lead to polarisation of US facing v non US facing poker sites where those non US players who dont have to play US facing sites will move or stay away from them preferring "Rest of the World" sites which have retained a more even profile of players with mostly fish and rec players for easy to win games

What does this mean for our forum ?

Basically this puts me in a big dilema ... I want members to be able to play all other members (US and non US)

If I run the games at Carbon then I make a loss funding them

But I dont want to promote for example a smaller merge site that few will have signed to in order to make a bit of revenue to fund the games - that is actually unlikely to earn revenue anyway

Most importantly I dont want to promote a US facing site or even just setup games at Carbon for existing players and then find in 6 weeks / 6 months who knows that we have Black Friday II / III

I know alot of other forums and sites are simply ignoring this but while I'm sure the remaining sites will be alot more attentive on payments / clearance of deposits / withdrawals etc there is still no getting away from the fact the environment has changed dramatically

In effect with all things considered the real money US online poker market is dead or dying so how do we get round that to keep forum games running and forum active ?

play money games on PokerStars ?

Any other suggestions ?

BTW if anyone knows of any brandable "free" poker software that we could setup and run private tournaments on that would be interesting

cheers scrawnybob

[Dan Abnormal]

YOu know whats even worse now with all this,

IM GETTING THE FEVER, I have been wanting to play more online than I have in a while (one reason, my game was getting a little overly confindent so I have set my self on strict rules of patience and and only playing what I have said Im allowed to play for any given position, last weekend at the card room, I was like I gotta get my patience and smart play back )

WEll OK back to online been playing a bunch on carbon (like 3-5 MTTS a day) I cant multi board yet, Im trying but is it timed to give you great hands always at the same time on 2 different boards. I remember back in the day (PRE BLACK FIRDAY) I could find a game anytime I wanted. Well last night I wanted a FN tourny to get into, I got in the money + profit on 2 different bouty MTTs and I was ready and GUESS WHAT, IT was like the shop had gone to sleep, like the online card room had closed up shop for the night (they had ring games but I wanted some MTT play, I got done with my last tounry at 2:30 am last night and wanted more and NO SITES IM ON HAD ANYTHING, NO carbon, No Cake, No Pokerhost ITs like their was a 5 hour break so I went to sleep all jacked up to play poker which Im doing now

Not a good start today 1.5K GTD went out 112th trip 4's lost flush on the river and if I wasnt BB and if soemone would of bet I would of folded this hand according to my patient building rules, but no, I had to play, I had to hit I had to get called and I had to get flushed on the river

OH WELL MANY PLANNED THIS AFTERNOON

[Ramster]

I think the only site where non US players are worried about their funds is Full Tilt

I've had a withdrawal pending for 2 months now at AP

I've mailed them a couple of times and all i get back is a generic reply

Ignorant b******s

[scrawnybob]

hi

sorry I had totally written off UB and AP from my mind since soon after Black Friday

partly because I didnt promote or recommend them and also because I was focussed more on the FT situation as I know it affects alot more players

initially it didnt look good for UB/AP's US players to get paid, they came out with alot of flannel that meant it still looked a possibility then in the last week or so its totally obvious they really are going to the wall and dont have any funds to pay anyone - including their US players.

I've always been negative on UB & AP since the potripper scandal and although other poker sites and forums seemed to be coming round to promoting them again in recent months to be honest I'm glad I didnt

It's really unfortunate for US players with funds at UB or AP but I have to say it now looks like a near certainty that money on Absolute and UltimateBet is lost forever

at the end of the day their player base was so massively US focussed and not much of anywhere else they lack the remaining non US player base to keep going and frankly the incentive to keep the show on the road - sad sad sad

I think there is alot more going in Full Tilts favour and I also hear rumours Ivey is back talking to Full Tilt ... more to come in the blog

cheers SB

[Dan Abnormal]

The day of black friday, I had small rolls on UB AP and PS and PS shut down before I can play but I blew my rolls on UP and AP on the bad beat jackpot tables (Too high roller for me but not BLACK Friday_ My luck I would of won it, Id never get the money and then the US govt would say HEY DUDE you won 35K the day of the shutdown we need our cut. Needless to say I blew AP and UB rolls that night

And whats bad I sorta liked the way UB felt to play on, and I remember SB was like they are bad stay away but I wasnt playing when the scandle broke so It had no memories of it but damn first a superuser scandle (and I read in one of mages that some dude was staked by some big family and got tangled up in the whole thing and lost millions) and then just not paying anyone, scummy company

SO WHATS THE DIRT ON THEIR GAMING COMMISSION for UB I hear they arent very above board either (Just what I read)

[Poker Orifice]

I've seen quite a few names in the lobbys of MTT's on Fulltilt of players who were formerly in U.S. & now are 'Canada', 'Mexico', 'Italy', 'Ukraine', etc. (even a couple of them who were US, then > Canada, then > Ukraine). Most have been HSMTT players but have also seen some who were/are low-midstakes MTT too. I even saw a guy on 2nl tables who's changed his address from US to > Canada (BlackRain79, the guy who puts out 2nl & 5nl vids. on 'DragTheBar' training site).

I thought I would see more of this than I've actually noticed but am guessing there'll be more of it once the WSOP is finished. I'm also 'guessing' that many who are considering the move are waiting a bit to see what's up with the FulltiltPoker situation. I've actually received a few pm's from some US HSMTT players who were enquiring about moving to Canada & wanting to know what it'd entail to get an address & bank account here. I expect we'll see more of this in the coming months.