In light of the full tilt situation should we all be concerned about online poker??

[stoneface52]

When a professional like Tony G comes to the fore to say that online poker needs independent and accountable regulation i think its time to be worried!

The full tilt poker scandal for me is the tip of a dirty iceberg. I have been trawling the web for negative information about online poker in general; scams, corruptions, complaints, etc and its impossible to get through it all?

The reason for this is my concerns about pokerstars and some really remarkable and consistent occurrences at their tables. I have done short and medium term analysis of my hand stats; table stats and stats from different game types and they dont add up?

when i have expressed concern to admin at pokerstars they have refused to speak to me; refused to give me contact details and been quite rude regarding my observations?

Should i be worried in light of Tony G's words?

Are the rumours and complaints that I never knew about but match my stats analysis correct?

Is the world of online poker tainted and tarnished right down to the core of its software?

I know this is a well trodden mantra but i would like to hear other poker players responses following the full tilt scandal along with any other historical concerns?

cheers!

[scrawnybob]

hi

just to clarify that pokerstars is a totally separate poker company to full tilt poker

so its like comparing two pharmaceutical companies

you should be able to get decent response from pokerstars support for your questions

also if you want more info on the pokerstars RNG its in our review

poker rooms already have independent regulation from other countries like the UK

there is alot of pro US lobbying going on to slag off existing sites to prepare the way for "great all American" products - part of making them look better than the current sites is discrediting them at any opportunity

a few months ago when they were looking to buy into them it was the exact reverse

Full Tilt has been managed badly - that is what tonyG has taked about but he has nowhere commmented negatively towards pokerstars

and infact he works with / for partypoker who are regulated under similar rules and regs to pokerstars and others

full tilt situation at the moment is more of a saga than a scandal

to be honest the real villan in all this is still the DOJ - dont forget that - the US gov't fu*ked up poker for everyone including people who arent even US citizens ...

that in itself contravenes international law BTW

anyway getting back to your hand history analysis this has been covered at length on the "pokerstars is rigged" conspiracy thread ... basically its the biggest site online by a million miles so its obviously going to attract the most haters / consiracy theorists and basically bad players / nitty players who are not net winners

hope the links are a help

cheers SB

[stoneface52]

Thanks for your response scrawnybob!

However, I have visited the negative threads, also the links you suggest and also done some short and medium term analysis of my own, that, to be frank, is very worrying indeed.

Toni G didnt specify any particular site but openly admitted his involvement with many.

What he did say, which was very big of him, was why aren't online poker sites properly regulated and open to independent scrutiny?

His inference was that off shore regulation and a persistence to avoid scrutiny of any kind beyond what suits the interests of the particular poker site is wrong.

Furthermore, that is exactly why the full tilt situation has occurred because it was beyond the scrutiny of the bodies it was affiliated to!

My comparing sites is relevant for many reasons because the same applies to each and without independent and impartial scrutiny who knows what is going on behind closed doors of companies that refuse to be regulated beyond their own considerations, which by the way is profit and nothing else!

High profile professionals have been implicated in the full tilt fiasco for creaming off money that actually belonged to punters so why should any punter just accept that everything else is fine and dandy?

I just do not believe it and there is enough evidence being bandied around to support that without assuming it is just the whining of disgruntled or poor players?

Which i might say is just the sort of response that poker sites would wish for and somewhat simplistic and cynical i think.

I could provide you with some of my analysis but it seems from your writing that you would immediately presume i am just whining or assume i am a poor player so i will leave you with one and let you do the maths for its probability:

i was dealt a royal flush 5 times in 10 days (4 of them in 3 days) and in less than 20,000 hands; in 8 weeks of sporadic play i have seen 15 in less than 100,000 hands.

Makes for interesting analysis along with many other obsevations i have made but i guess it doesn't matter for those like yourself that believe all is fine and mathematical probability is just a mere nonsense?

I would love to be part of a community that petitioned for independent regulation and an independent body that has open access to scrutinise software and practice but i can see as long as those with vested interest, even yourself perhaps, are allowed to keep the status quo they will!

Thanks again for responding bob but i have to say your response is atypical of those that wish to protect something that is fundamentally flawed and what i witness at the tables that will never compare to what i have witnessed live is nothing short of corrupted and the full tilt situation is a shining example of it!

yours stoneface

p.s my father was a bookmaker for thirty years and he maintains that wherever there is gambling there will be corruption right to the very top, why should online poker be any different?

We both know the answer to that in light of full tilt but by all means you campaign for its veracity and i will do the opposite! have fun with the stat' i sent you, it makes for interesting reading!

[stoneface52]

i think a more measured response is forthcoming given you have emailed me twice but i require something more than the standard pro forma responses that seem to be always given out. that particular stat i gave you should have drawn a response but it hasn't and i had the same lack of response from pokerstars when i challenged them for explanation. in addition to which they were quite rude and refused to give me contact details for anyone above the moderator/chat team? why would that be? my first interest in poker started many years ago but had nothing to do with gambling it was all because of mathematical probability. whilst i am no professor of the subject maths is a subject i am interested in from algebra right through to pure math E=Mc2 and all that malarkey. the basis for mathematical probability is beyond the reach of most poker room players except for implied odds on any given hand and situation. Such suffices for most players along with pot odds, stack values and the ability to play correctly or to any particular style as the case may be. The in depth understandin of mathematical probability is somewhat more difficult to evaluate due to the theoretical imposition that each new hand has the same potential outcomes. however, mathematical probability where fixed odds are implied is a scientific given by any stretch of the imaginiation and should there be any significant variance away from it there is a flaw somewhere. like a dodgy roulette table,weighted dice or a card counter or cardsharp.
having read the books and avidly watched poker for many years i commenced playing a few years ago, live first and then online. right up to the present day my experiences of playing and watching live have been markedly different to online and purely out of mathematical interest i have analysed that contradiction? It of course shouldnt be different in any respect; you apply the same tools and draw on the same information so the experience should be the same. But it is proving not to be the case?
before drawing conclusion i have analysed and taken notes both whilst playing and just observing covering all different formats of the game types offered at pokerstars. they vary greatly in my observations yet those observed variations are, ironically, remarkably consistent? i can write a very long list of witnessed specific occurences that have also been aired before me online and are also aired by many hundreds of players at pokerstars currently but that would be a pointless exercise in truth because the same old mantra's of; its poker, it happens and its variance will be the simplistic response. what if it isnt? what if algarithmic technology is just not 100%? or, as a software engineer friend of mine said,who is in charge of managing a massive department for an international bank; what if they tweek it to suit there own interests? when pressed he said any amount of software can be made to do whatever the engineer wants it to do and subtle anamolies would bring about vast variations over time.
now all the theories for why this might be the case have been aired before but my specific reason for airing it now is the full tilt situation! if a leading provider in the market can be so blatantly corrupt as to spend all the punters money leading to licence revocation, why should anyone believe that they wouldnt also be prepared to run software that generated more money for the same end? In my opinion through observations its just not good enough to pay a company a vast amounts of money who in return says your rng is perfect, when it often appears not to be the case. where is the independent scrutiny, up to date or ongoing analysis? what creadence is there in a regulatory body that couldnt even pick up on the full tilt situation never mind prevent it?
to coin a phrase they are all pissing in the same pot of a $billion dollar industry with scant regard for international independent affiliation for scrutiny and regulation and the punter has nothing but hope to rely on for his investments??
Please,please,please somebody tell me there is nothing to worry about!?

[scrawnybob]

hi

hi Neville

first off thanks for your email

second off thanks for posting it in the forum as requested as my reply was getting so long and really think this is such a useful and broad subject that is great for others to also discuss in the forum

ok here goes ...

seriously I am not blindly defending the sites in fact I agree with much of what you have said and I invite open discussions in the forum - that is what makes it interesting

also if you have a look in my blog I mostly post on player issues like this - not just blindly promoting them

Using My One Time on Full Tilt Poker | 4kingpoker.com

Full Tilt Down But Not Out | 4kingpoker.com

WSOP Week Two Roundup and US Poker Update | 4kingpoker.com

WSOP Week One Roundup & Still Waiting on Tilt | 4kingpoker.com

Near the End for Online Poker in US ? | 4kingpoker.com

Why are US Players Still Waiting for Cashouts ? | 4kingpoker.com

Absolute Not Folding, PokerStars Gives Up Bin Laden & GUKPT Walsall | 4kingpoker.com

I am not discounting some of your arguments but seeking to clarify a few things that are muddling alot of separate issues together as if they are one connected issue - and also highlighting a couple of things which are relevant to who is to blame

1) there are alot of agendas going on with online gaming at the moment between the live B&M casinos trying to make a meal of "regulation" of online sites that previous to the UIGEA were not anything like as bad ...

ie. the gov't and live US casinos have MADE these problems because they stand to benefit from "proving" that offshore companies cant run rooms and the industry needs the US to regulate it ...

that is nonsense - the UK has been regulating for several years and until the US forced the UIGEA effectively onto the world there were LESS rogue sites and LESS problems and Full Tilt wouldnt have been a problem either

it's also very very very likely that any US regulation will be purely and completely for the benefit of taxation and US casinos NOT the players ... the rake will be alot higher / tax WILL be collected and the actual regulation to make sure sites dont go rogue will not be about going rogue it will be about keeping the spoils for the handful of US B&M casinos in a collusive cartel / monopoly ...

conversely with the UK regulation we pay no tax on gambling as players and the regulation is far far more orientated towards advertising / controlling underage gambling etc - all those things are already done in the UK without excluding or affecting other countries rights - ie. not being greedy

it's also very likely that the current UK white list requirements in terms of player and social care will be higher than those required by US regs - which will be more about protecting US casinos interests and not the public

the sites ended up in problems because of the US seizing millions and millions of dollars - alot of which in the case of Full Tilt they've actually seized more funds that were owed to US players - which is what caused their cash flow to meltdown

Caesars CEO Gary Loveman Foresees Online Poker Legalization in U.S.

"Loveman said that there is now an opportunity for companies like Caesars. Now that the major “illegal” offshore operators are gone, there is a “vacuum,” as he put it, for established American brick and mortar gaming firms to fill."

however it's really important point to make as a UK resident could quite rightly view ANY US casinos sites regulated by the US as "offshore" to me ... sound silly ?

Yes of course it does because the US has been as is currently making a meal out of making 1st world coutries regulation of online poker sound like its run by the mafia from the jungle - dont fall for the recent well funded smear campaign by US B&M casinos

just remember about a week before the DOJ announcements the self same companies were making deals with the very same indicted "offshore" companies to partner with them in an opened up US environment

Vegas Deals with Online Poker | 4kingpoker.com

Will PokerStars to buy Las Vegas ? | 4kingpoker.com

US Poker Regulation Will US respect the global market or create a protectionist closed shop | 4kingpoker.com

2) there are alot of agendas / grudges etc between pro players, business partners and companies

for example Tony G is a notorious sh*t stirrer just for the sake of it - its part of his image and personality - so while he DOES come up with valid points he also comes up with stuff because it suits him / companies he owns or companies paying him

ie. Tony G owns pokernews and is also consultant / sponsored pro for party poker

As owner of pokernews and others (worth many many millions) He is effectively an affiliate of most of the poker rooms (as am I on a much much smaller scale) there are ALOT of issues where WE as business partners get miss treated and screwed over by the sites moving the goal posts, changing rules cutting off revenue streams by changing T&C's running inaccurate stats on signups / rev etc -

however running inaccurate signups stats or changing the terms we work under is underhand that has nothing to do with the RNG and seeing an opportunity to sell sort partners where possible is not the same is thinking they could get away with rigging the RNG which is customer facing and actually pretty easy to monitor - I'll come to that in a bit

that means well before any player problems most affilaites HATE Full Tilt and also dont especially like many other affiliate programs to work with but have to acknowledge that from a player POV some of those very same sites might actually be best player choices (but not who pays us the most)

As consultant to party poker when he came out with the comments he did about Full Tilt and Phil Ivey it was widely thought that PWIN / Bwin / Party were actively seeking to acquire Full Tilt

but with that deal going sour / not getting it cheap as they would like it would be VERY VERY in their interests to get the value of Full Tilt to nose dive ...

for them it would be a win win ... either they pick up Full Tilt cheaper or they discredit the brand so much that they pick up the bulk of disaffected non US players - which they have

there are / were alot of people gunning for Full Tilt for alot of different reasons ... alot of people settling scores personally or thinking they would massively benefit from Full Tilt woes and making them worse or highlighting them for advantage - NOT for player interests

Tony G';s comments WERE specifically directed at Full Tilt and he has not to my knowledge suggested any of the sites RNG's are suspect ever afiaks ...

he has specifically criticised the way Full Tilt has been run (as have I) and has also suggested that online poker as a whole should be globally more regulated (as have I)

however he has NOT come down on the side of US led regulation in the way that the US interested parties would want it

far from it, as far as I am aware he has similar views to me and many others that online poker is a global game and should be regulated under some common frameworks so that players can play globally under some standard regulation while nationally gov't get some sort of tax take on the industry and alot of job creation

unfortunately the US gov't is far more worried about its tax take and looking after the US casinos interests that have bought their loyalty than actual player / public interest

3) RNG's etc

on the subject of independent scutiny - the RNG's on the biggest sites ARE audited by independent bodies that acceditate them - pokerstars, fulltilt, partypoker, PKR, 888, ipoker etc

on the rigged RNG side millions of hands ARE independently checked by players and player advocates - never has an issue actually be found, substanciated or proven etc by players spending alot of time trying ... they are looking at millions of hands

you can buy millions of millions of hand histories on these sites and check the probability etc for yourself - as do alot of the players / player advocates who uncovered the AP / UB scandal ... they are looking at PS and FTP hand histories all the time and have found nothing

on the royal flush side of things - wow yes that looks "iffy" however to balance your "excessive number of royal flushes" in that number of hands I must have played 10,000's of hands at over 20+ sites over the last 8 years roughly since 2003 and I have only got a royal flush 3 times in that 8 years.

so just averaging out your hands and mine combined would get back to the averages ... there is nothing in probability that says the stats HAVE to work over the short or medium term of specific to one player

I've had a ruck load of bad beats but proportionately I have probably seen a % wise similar amount of BB's and "iffy" hands in live games.

I've got to nip to the airport to drop the rabble off so will post more later today

I know this is a long reply and hopefully its been helpful and maybe other members can add their thoughts pro and con as there are alot of issues brought up in the thread - some connected and some not

anyway welcome to the forum and great to have more active members

cheers scrawnybob

[scrawnybob]

ps. just seen your 3rd post which I will have to read fully when I get back ;-)

yes I agree the amount of royal flushes in such short time is highly improbable but I know also hitting 7 times in a row on roulette is too - but it's happened

really hope others will chime in too - how many royals has anyone else had ?

has PS support really got that bad ?

are they just evasive on "iffy" hands ?

BTW they should be able to give you all your HH on request and that is a fairly standard request from players wanting to check things

got to go to airport and see parents for B'day

more later ;-)

[stoneface52]

thnx for your extensive reply!
you obviously have a much greater knowledge of the poker world than myself and it is clear to see you are disgruntled yourself in many respects with the current state of affairs following the U.S situation and full tilt.
Its interesting to note that you agree and disagree with Toni G, perhaps dependent on differing affiliations, but in principle you both echo my sentiments precisely! The online poker world needs regulating by one body! That body needs to be entirely free and independent of any vested interests of poker sites, professionals and any other affiliates. That body should then be able to negotiate licences with countries internationally as relevant and with respect to any specific country's legislative requirements! There shouldn't be any need for tax havens or offshore accounting or registration and to avoid such it is blatantly obvious that the poker community should be in a position to demand such.
The interviews i heard with Tony G, along with some articles, showed the man in a good light for me regardless of the fact that he has his fingers in particular pies. He has rattled the cage of poker gods and certain heirarchy and from my perspective that is the right thing to do. hundreds of millions of dollars are missing and its not the U.S govt thats to blame otherwise pokerstars would have been in the same position! He specifically pointed the finger at team full tilt for a percentage of the missing dollars and suggested they come out of their ivory towers and pledge something for the punters from their takings. One of the problems there being that the professionals are scared to death of admitting they are effectively owners/partners of the full tilt enterprise?
Anyway, in a nutshell, it is clear that the online poker world resides in a seedy backwater at the moment and without clearly defined codes of practice and internationally recognised regulation and authority. Which by any stretch of the imagination is no good thing!
On the subject of software veracity Bob there is clearly some dividing of camps. Some analysis i have seen besides my own demonstrates too greater variance and of course there is that, as you suggest, that demonstrates the opposite. one theory you promote is that probability is not singular to me due to the overall site probability that is occuring moment to moment. thats not correct pal because mathematical probability is not governed in such a way. for example; if i gave two dice to a million people and asked them to record a million throws each, all the results would read the same except for absolutely miniscule variance. if you were to combine all the results that variance would reduce still further because that is the nature of mathematical probability. its the same for a coin flip or a roulette table and it is also the same for poker. If the variance between individual online poker players experiences is great it is safe to assume that the overall experience will be the same and it certainly shouldnt be the case that wild variations in personal experience bring everything back to the norm. that in my opinion is illogical and not how probability works.
To close i must say i respect a great deal of what you have said and the time you must have taken to respond to my lambasts and i thank you for that. Given that we share the belief that improved regulation might bring about positive change maybe you should use your influence to create a petition for such given the current climate. As for myself i will carry on trying to improve my game but i maintain the belief; if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, its because it is a duck! At this moment in time i think the software issue is suspect to say the least, whether deliberate or ineffective?
Regards stoneface!
P.S. Noted your 7x number record for roulette.lol 37 to 1 v 650,000 to 1, though granted i didnt get five in a row, now that would be ridiculous (witnessed 2 in a row on skypoker t.v and the presenters looked extremely embarassed by it, speechless almost, my head hurts trying to work out the odds)

[thejudge]

Just to add to your odds possibilities .....I have NEVER had a royal in 15 years of poker...

But apart from that ...ty stoneface for lots of interesting insights and u 2 bob.

[scrawnybob]

hi

I'll try and address separate things in separate replies if I can otherwise I get tied up in knots

"but my specific reason for airing it now is the full tilt situation! if a leading provider in the market can be so blatantly corrupt as to spend all the punters money leading to licence revocation, why should anyone believe that they wouldnt also be prepared to run software that generated more money for the same end?"

Full Tilt HAS NOT spent the punters money and that isnt what has led to the licence revocation (the outstanding amount has now been paid to the AGCC btw)

the punters money has along with a ruck load of FTP actual OWN money had been seized by the DOJ

It's really important to understand what, why and how FTP have a shortfall on their non US bank balances which were techically not seized by the US govt (but in effect were in part as well) ...

some people have put it down to "co-mindling of funds" however even that in itself wouldn't actually cause the problem

the issue is the amount of money seized by the DOJ in proportion to liabilities and total player funds including non US player funds because they seized more in US and also additional funds held in Ireland

PokerStars wereable to pay out US players NOT because of segregated funds but because they happened to hold more of their funds "offshore" in accounts that the DOJ didnt get to

As I've said before PokerStars in a sense we just a bit more lucky that where they put more of their money wasn't seized partly because their US player base was nearer 25% of total compared to FTP 35%+

the requirement of the PokerStars regulator is to have all player funds theoretically covered in a separate ring fenced account - that is fine and in their case was held in I think Isle of Man (UK)

In the case of FTP they DID have player funds theoretically covered in separate bank accounts - but much of them happened to be in the US OR in the 20 odd accounts in IRELAND which the DOJ has also managed to seize / freeze ... and therefore got seized in addition to "funds in play" in the US + their own funds

OK so a very rough and ready idea of roughly what FTP's balance previously looked like

150m in US player funds +
250m in non US player funds +
FTP's own money in clear funds after other business liabilities (say complete guess but at least 100m++++)

so thats all fine and dandy - Ivey could legitmately draw down maybe up to 10m if he wanted to assuming he owns 10% of the company which is actually worth billions but would have actual own cash assets of at least 100m+++

the the DOJ then seize as much money as they can find in any US bank accounts AND in additional accounts in IRELAND

because FTP were honouring US player deposits that actually hadn't gone through (ie. the players money never left the players bank account but they credited the players FTP accounts approx $60m) + they were holding the US players fund balances in US accounts (approx $150m) to minimise moving funds in and out of the US which attracts more problems + they will have had some of their actual own money in additional US accounts (amount unknown)

Plus there are the additional 20 accounts in IRELAND in FTP names that actually are most like would be counted as their segregated player funds in non US accounts but got seized / frozen anyway

that means at a very rough guess it's minimum of $210m++ seized and I suspect it's actually alot more including the IRISH accounts - with more of FTP's own (not just players) funds getting seized too

after 15th April FTP stay open to non US players

So after black monday both pokerstars and FTP remain open to their BIGGER non US player base

The issue for FTP is to figure out just how much the seizures have affected their ability to run the business

my best guess is that there was a total globally of around $500m but more than $250m got seized which meant that they could scrape together the $250m to cover non US player balances using the remains of their own money and the segregated accounts that were non US ... so in order to honour the non US player balances they were then running on thin air

the AGCC will have know this but IMHO would have been satisfied that they had got $250m if there was a run on the non US player accounts ...

effectively there was a mini run on the accounts which non US players putting in withdrawal requests which were then at that time honoured

this made things much more difficult - then you have people like TonyG, the US casinos, ipoker, party poker & other non US sites and everyone else circling around intentionally making the most of the uncertainty to try and get players to deposit at their sites ...

and in turn make FTP problems alot worse - destabalising the site further and REDUCING its value to potential buyers (like maybe PWIN / Party /Bwin)

IMHO as I said previously this was very shortsighted opportunism - like circling vultures


Phil Ivey loans etc

I dont want people to thing just because we have pointed out the pro player loans to founders and founders that have gone backward and forward means Ivey or anyone has stolen or misapropriated FTP funds - he hasnt really - its just doesnt make good reading given current issues

Basically if he owns 5% or 10% of the business it would be perfectly legitimate to draw dividends (in the form of transfer to player account) or infact cash up part of his investment etc

Ivey hasnt run off with player money either - the DOJ has

The revocation on the licence

Personally I think the AGCC has been kept fully up to date on FTP financials every step of the way - and when other vested interests were trying to sink the site, creating more uncertainty for non US players it became clear that potentially loads of non US players would want their funds - honouring them would be possible but would effectively make the poker room worthless as a going concern

so my guess is they pulled the licence and told FTP they had till the 26th July to finalise the deal -

effectively shutting the site down by the regulator bought them some time where the money was frozen safely but wasnt disappearing off the site back to panicing players

I think the hope was the deal would have been tied up for the hearing and it would have become an announcement not an ajournment

Why does AGCC hearing need to be in private ?

Not being funny but if I was coming up with $150m+ I would want a little bit of slack

there is no doubt that FTP have NOT handled any of this very well - but that doesnt make them corrupt it just makes them a bit incompetent

but also the new investors cant be held responsible for previous mistakes if they are trying to invest and get things back on track

clearly there is a deal in the process and its not remotely in the interests of any players for that deal to fall through - so if it means that the site got shutdown to freeze funds to then get the deal through and that takes a month longer ...

then while that isnt ideal its a hell of alot better than the site going to the wall and the DOJ getting away with all the money it has taken from FTP and effectly the players both US and non US

cheers scrawnybob

[scrawnybob]

hi all

on the subject of regulation Im not sure that one universal regulator across the globe would work - thats like the UN of poker

its not going to happen

but what I am advocating is that countries have to stop branding businesses "offshore" when they might be offshore to the US but that doesnt make them lawless

the whole of this problem has been CREATED by the US gov't they ARE to blame for derailing global companies that were operating perfectly legally in other countries - and other players suffer as well as US players because of US Gov't stupidity and frankly overstepping their jurisdiction.

That said I think we need to have some common minimum requirements for licencees and regulators

and most importantly Countries need to respect those regulators even if theyre not in their own country

yes there were a few rogue sites before the UIGEA in 2006 but they were a small minority and not even names people would recognise

but to be honest the bill has created a problem that didnt exist before - and that was premeditated by those who got the bill through - they wanted to ban poker and failed so the UIGEA was the only way to eventually criminalise running a poker site via the change to the banking laws

what needs to be recognised is the US B&M casinos are already circling again around non US sites to buy them out or do deals with them ...

how come on the one hand they were happy to paint them out to be evil unregulated pirate offshore rogue operations and that only US casinos can make it safe for US citizens ?

then on the other they want to work together and form partnerships ?

surely this makes no sense ?

The UIGEA and finally the seizures have all been designed to hobble competition from non US business so the US B&M casinos and most importantly the US gov't tax system can get all the action to themselves or not at all

yes regulation needs to be better - but please DONT DONT DONT delude yourselves that US regulation will be any better for the player or safer than it is already - it will just be better at making sure they gov't get their rake

cheers scrawnybob

ps. while the French have introduced pretty excessive regulation - specifically ring fencing French players so you have .fr only sites even they didnt seek to screw up the rest of the world's poker by seizing money just because they could

IF the US want to ring fence then that while a bad idea is up to them - the issue is that they havent just "protected" their own citizens (infact they actually failed at that) but they have also screwed other non US citizens of their cash too

I hinted along time ago that I expect in the fullness of time that the US gov't DOJ at some point might just get a bill for damages at some point either through the WTO or as a counter demand to the seizure settlement figures - we'll see