Party Poker Hand Histories

[Asbestross]

Hi all,

Over the past few weeks I have been discussing quite a few options with my solicitor and uncle (he's a barrister) regarding the legitimacy of Party Poker's RNG and further steps that can be taken if there are any discrepancies found in their suffle system;

A good friend of mine has agreed to help go through all hand histories to catalogue and analyse the data, personally I have close to 70,000 hands which are to be analysed, however I need more. A lot more...

So if any of you are willing to share "legitimate" hand histories, please would you be so kind as to email them direct to me at asbestross@hotmail.co.uk preferably in .zip format, or text files will suffice.

Thanks in advance,

Ross

[scrawnybob]

hi

so afaiks you'd decided stars was rigged with your HH of 20k hands and now Party is rigged from your 70k hands

I'm not sure that if you think they're both rigged then the common denominator is your play and not necessarily the sites but there we are

just for info ...

Party poker's RNG is audited and certified by iTech Labs and includes a load of other poker / casino clients ...

iTech Labs - Worlds Premier Test Lab For Online Gaming Systems

there is also some info in our Party Poker review ...

Party Poker RNG

Pokerstars RNG is audited and certified by citigal who also certify FullTilt's RNG although they are different systems

Cigital - Online Gaming Security

there is also info in both our reviews ...

PokerStars RNG & Full Tilt Poker RNG

It's worth bearing in mind that you could buy 100's of 1,000's of HH from sites who routinely data mine them ...

its also worth bearing in mind that there are already several bunches of player advocates who routinely analyse 100's of 1000's of HH at the major sites including Stars, Fulltilt & Party looking to uncover any wrongdoing or make sure there isnt another UB or Absolute fiasco like there was 4 yrs ago ...

what have they found with 100k's ?

nothing

seriously 90% of players are net losing players it's that simple - its in the game

enjoy playing or stop playing

dont get bitter - get better

is my honest advice otherwise seeing boogies in the background all the time will amost certainly mess up any kind of good game you have with paranoia ruling over skill and patience

good luck


cheers scrawnybob

[kingmotan]

hahaha this post made my day.
He's in just for the free HH Bob. So Asbestros, if I send you 300k hands will you tell me why I am like 30BI under EV?? And then we can sue Stars together and get filthy rich ??

If you want a lot of HH so ur hud can look pretty and chit you can buy them for little $, no need to trick innocent ppl into sending you their own. On ptr 1 mirrion hands at 25nl costs 28$, so only 1buyin to get reads on almost anyone at that limit.

Disclaimer: Don't buy data mined hh. Those hands probably won't get you to play better so be fair-play,study, and beat them by playing them.

[Asbestross]

Kingmotan: The information i'm wanting is purely for analysis, if you are concerned that I will use it for a HUD(?) Then remove your screen name from it. Or simply dont provide it at all. I wasnt aware you could buy Hand Histories online, if I was I wouldnt have requested it but thanks

Scrawnybob, I do value any feedback and always have done.

So it is much appreciated

A while ago, I did have my suspicions regarding pokerstars, to the end of I quit playing there. And focused more on PP. Nothing has changed in my play style what so ever, yet over the past few weeks i've gone from approximately $2k up to having a roll of just over $140 all through countless and relentless suck out after suck out. Not at wimpy limits I might add, but 0.25/0.50 and 0.10/0.25.

Ok, some would call it variance, but either its the worst variance ever seen in the history of poker, or something isnt right.

I'm an experienced player, and frequently win big at live ring games and local tournaments. Between there and my online play, obviously there are some changes to accomodate the online play techniques, but my judgement and strength remains.

How can I win, when every single time i'm in with the best of it, 80-90% favourite, the river card throws the hand to my opponent. Please, do not think i'm over-exaggerating here either.... or that i'm giving free cards.... genuine scenarios where, for example, holding pocket queens I flop a boat, raising up instigates a shove from my opp who goes on to turn / river runner runner straight flush (from 99 hole cards).

Two days ago was the worst day I have ever had in my poker career, without a doubt.
Im not going to go into details of it.

And yes I understand that many people before have also gone through this to no avail, but if not for finding fault I also want to go through them for my own peace of mind (If I find no problems I'll simply walk away from online poker for good).

There is one major issue with which I have however; their systems are supposedly truly random, and work to the correct percentages yes?

A friend of mine [BSc (Hons) Mathematics Grad] who has studied some of the history information commented earlier:

A probability system or computer system setup to provide 'imitated' randomness would do so by ensuring that certain controls were in place to ensure the correct statistical probabilities were met over a certain range of integers.

So from an observational viewpoint, when that range of integers (or in your case shuffle) were observed and cataloged it would give the illusion that the system is in fact random.

However, here is the snag. The system itself, and observational viewpoint only focuses, or directs focus onto the range of integers with which the statistical adherence lies. Any deviance from the percentages on an individual basis (ie your individual shuffle) would not be highlighted. Therefore the system could manipulate the individual numbers, providing it is compensated for in a different entry.

So, if all the information you have does show statistical adherence, it only proves that over a fixed number of hands their systems are working to the percentages that are given to it. Not that it is in fact random, nor does it eliminate manipulation.

The final outcome of the hand is what actually counts towards the adherence percentage, and is what all monitoring and analysis of their systems will rely on. This is where the problem lies; the reporting of data is characterised not by the construct of a hand, but the final outcome. So any manipulation will not be reported, and cannot tracked by any third party systemic observations.

In order to highlight any manipulation that may, or may not be taking place, we need to investigate the hand information to show statistical data for each hand involved at every stage of the deal. A complicated and lengthy process as i'm sure you understand.

Sorry for the lengthy post, but I thought his comments make sense?

[kingmotan]

mkay I don't understand half the words ur friend is using hence I don't get his point.
It's rigged just for you, or!?
I want you to tell me how does that translates into your problem. You said you dropped from 2k to 100$. Why do you think that is? You didn't play HU so why would the site want you to lose it all and others to win from you? Look at the big picture for a change.
What you need to understand is that sites like party,tilt and especially pokerstars are making Millions of dollars everyday, literally printing money.
I could agree that sites might want to mess around with the rng to create action in cash games but why would they want Asbestross to lose being a 80-90% favourite?
You played with this nick on stars, right? If you don't mind I'm gonna take a look over the hands you've played and see how much you put ur money in ahead and what not.

Oh and the e-mail you put in ur 1st post is the one you use for your poker accounts too, amirite?
You should avoid that in the future and keep this info as private as u can!

[kingmotan]

Dude I watched your biggest pots on stars; won and lost;
With the risk of getting flamed again, you play bad; very bad! If you want me to get into details I will but please stop talking about rigged sites, bad players, or how you put ur money in as a favourite. You don't, trust me. If you do well live stick to it. Some people can't adapt to online and don't understand why you DON"T limp KJ in the cutoff at 50nl 6max and then call a raise oop. If I sounded too harsh, that's just me, I get annoyed by ppl who can't beat 1c/2c and come here and talk about how RNG is rigged and how they're gonna sue the pokersites because they can't understand the game.
Like Bob said, 10% of the players are winners, 90% are not. Of course some of those 90% don't understand Why, so they start conspiracy theories and RNG analyses INSTEAD of coming to these forums posting hands and asking for advice and being modest about it.

[Asbestross]

Firstly Kingmotan; I didnt create this thread to start a flame war or "slagging match", but obviously you are determined to turn it into one.

I dont know where you are looking for your hand information, but you know what you're right.... all my losses over the past two weeks on PP it must be that one hand played badly (which you so determinately searched for) causing it all. That would explain it! I also have some concern as to the legitimacy of the site you found this data on considering I haven't played with PS now for going on two-three months, even then playing at cash tables I visited not very often so would stretch to say it is around 6 months ago the last hand I played on such a table.

But please, if you wish to provide further details of this it would make me more content. I have no issue with you trying to find fault in my game; i expect it if I am to make certain accusations against poker rooms.

Now back to the main course of this thread:

I never said nor implied that PP or PS was rigged solely for me, or rigged solely for me to lose. What I implied was that they the shuffles are manipulated as to incite further action and hence shift wealth to those more likely to chip into a pot more often and create higher levels of rake than would be had from a more nitty player.

Basically what my friend was saying is iTech labs and all tests on RNG's state that they only test the outcome of the RNG and not the shuffle system. So all tests done are of the final outcome of a deal (ie. the winning hands) not whether the shuffle order of the cards is random. This is confirmed by the certificate provided by iTech labs. So provided that the final outcome of a hand is correct to the expected percentages, it doesnt matter what each individual hand in the deal has because these are not monitored. The shuffle could deal twice as many straights to players than the correct percentages would allow, providing half of these hands were beat by higher hands (does that make sense)

So far i've compiled 1,800+ hands (not much I know but i'm getting there slowly)
This is where i'm up to so far:



I can post a copy of the spreadsheet if you wish, its just an excel sheet with VBA background programming to calculate hands etc. The hardest part is parsing information from multiple text files into one. But I am on with the workaround which will read multiple files at once.

[Whatsthepassword?]

Good luck with this. These sites need to be held to account. The more research that is compiled in this way the better.

Don't be put off by people trying to turn it into a slanging match. They are often planted by the poker sites in forums like this just to try and discredit people like you.

The poker sites who make millions out of online players have a duty to prove they are trustworthy and operate honest operations. Keep the pressure on them to do so.

[Terminal Frost]

They are often planted by the poker sites in forums like this just to try and discredit people like you.

LOL. Like stars cares about trash talking in forums.

But kudos for coming up with a conspiracy theory I hadn't heard.

[Asbestross]

Thanks for your support guys;

I really doubt Kingmotan is an affiliate of PP or PS lol, and I do understand completely where he is coming from. There is too much talk of sites being rigged without any proof to back it up, which is hopefully where I may be able to help.

The spreadsheet I've put together, should go some way to proving or disproving the whole rigged theory; if not just in part.

What concerns me at the moment are the figures for straight / flush / full house hands.
So far the statistics indicate that these hands are being dealt out way more than should be expected. This is only a small measure being 1,800 hands so we will see if over a much much larger range of measure it evens out.

The tool at the bottom of the sheet is very handy indeed; i programmed this to compare the frequency of hands going to showdown. Worth noting that on this section the figures are "How many times has occured / how many times you expect it to occur with the range of hands used" and any with 0 as the expected amount, is not 0 but so small a number that unless I display the 7 digits before the decimal place it will show as 0.

I'm still working through more hand history documents and will post an update when I have further information to share.

If anyone wants to go through my coding to ensure i'm not 'smudging' the figures, you are more than welcome to. It is completely open-source, and free for you to use if you so wish. Just let me know...