where have all the donks gone?

[rgchan]

I agree there are still plenty of Donks.I would even say it has affected/changed some of our regular players game stragedies. It seems to me you have to take a few big gambles or Races to win or place in the top 3 of a tournament lately.
I find they really come out more though on the weekend end nights. Friday and Saturday nights. Try the low ring tables or S & g,s ... LOL
RG

[PokerJonny]

Poker is about playing the player/situation NOT just about the cards.
If you raise 6BB pre flop and are getting 6 callers then you need to adjust your strategy.
e.g. you have AA at a table of donks - then raise >10BB or limp & then re-raise all in when the pot is raised after you, otherwise just play the hand as any other PP - just for set value.

As with every other aspects of poker, playing a table full of donks needs adjustment to you strategy, eg.....

dont continuation bet when you miss
slow down with TPTK
value bet more
etc etc.

Good players adjust to donks, weaker players don't, thats why good players prefer to, and make more money playing against donks, and to suggest otherwise is just plain wrong.

Originally Posted by nb1961

Well lets see how about simple maths for a start

Chances of AA winning against 1 player 88%

Chances of AA winning against 4 players 68%.

What is this calculation trying to prove?

Firstly the numbers are incorrect (please use poker stove) AA is 85% v 1 random hand and 54% against 4 random hands.
Also you ignore the added tournament equity of increasing your stack 4 fold by your AA holding up against 4 players.

Poker is about making +EV plays, I'm no expert but I would guess playing AA AI pre flop against 4 players has greater EV than just against 1.

In a 10plyer STT by taking a 54% flip against 4 players, if you win you are virtually guranteed a payout - meaning you have at worst doubled your money (3rd place), and should really finish 1st or 2nd as you could really play aggressively on the bubble.

If I had this situation on a daily basis I would be a millionaire by the end of the year!! (and you complain about it?)

[dooish]

poker jonny, I'm glad you play different tables to me.

[hojediade]

Originally Posted by rgchan

players game stragedies.

Don't know yet how to understand that Chan.
Are the players becoming tragic nor games.

I don't know if online poker players have changed as the only thing that interest me is to change my play. I don't much worry about others plays usually, even tho i can be donk-out as evrybody.

[pooterguy]

Originally Posted by nb1961

If you get more players calling regardless of what they hold it is harder to win the hand.

This is known as the schooling phenomenon. I.e., with a monster hand, it's relatively easy to take out one fish. But when you're facing a whole school of fish, you're up against the collective outs of the entire school.

[villaridge]

Originally Posted by PokerJonny

Also you ignore the added tournament equity of increasing your stack 4 fold by your AA holding up against 4 players.

"Tournament Equity" ???????????????lol What, this might just be a hot new poker term to explain how Romanians get a big stack

Oh yeah, Mr 1st post "armaniss" and plug another site in your first post here at 4K. YOU ARE A SPAMMER. GTFO

[Terminal Frost]

Originally Posted by nb1961

Well lets see how about simple maths for a start

Chances of AA winning against 1 player 88%

Chances of AA winning against 4 players 68%

You nailed this nb-absolutely THE perfect example.

Of course there are many others-not the least of which are the all in donks with their gut shot str8 draws or the one needing runner runner for their flush. Anyone who thinks it's easy to play against these idiots hasn't been playing low buyins much.

I will agree in ring games, the donks lose in the long run. Nothing wrong with having a few of them there, since a lucky catch by them doesn't put you out of the game as it does in MTT's. Reloading and waiting for them to donk themselves can be very rewarding.

[PokerJonny]

Originally Posted by Terminal Frost

You nailed this nb-absolutely THE perfect example.

Of course there are many others-not the least of which are the all in donks with their gut shot str8 draws or the one needing runner runner for their flush. Anyone who thinks it's easy to play against these idiots hasn't been playing low buyins much.

I will agree in ring games, the donks lose in the long run. Nothing wrong with having a few of them there, since a lucky catch by them doesn't put you out of the game as it does in MTT's. Reloading and waiting for them to donk themselves can be very rewarding.

I used to play tons of low buy ins and found it easy to play against idiots?

I dont really know what else to say in this thread; maybe some of you guys do not have the skills to adapt your game, and that is probably one of the reasons you still play these freerolls?

[scrawnybob]

hi

I have to say some interesting points brought up in this thread

just my 2p but I have to agree with jonny on alot of points - as Ive always said you should be looking out and actively playing with bad players aka "donks"

not trying to avoid them

its very true that you shoudl be able to beat bad players (including a table full of them) and "moving up to avoid donks" is also one of the ... hmm ... least sound approaches

yes different stakes and different opponents require a different game - but if you cant beat bad players (including a table full) - your not over the long terms going to beat moderately competent ones or good ones either

however

the advice about / problems of being in multiway pots with a group of donks / fish IS valid om the sense that you odds are shortened on premium hands IF you allow 4 or 5 players to see the flop ... that is one of the crucuial differences - with hands like AA or KK you have to find the size of bet that WILL cut the field ...

its no good saying a "text book" 4x BB "should" make the donks fold and have only one caller ... if an allin bet is what it takes or a 12xBB preflop bet to be heads up with aces preflop ... then that is an awesome table to be at

one thing is for sure if you made that bet at a mid stakes game - it would get folded all the way round ... however if you made the standard 3 / 4x BB then you would still be likely to get 2 callers (not one) ...

the game is changing, the game is evolving ... getting more aggressive ... the "textbook" way of playing is also changing as more and more players get a basically sound game and
are starting to play a bit more of a mixed "non textbook" game ... that is going to make the middle stakes games tougher - not easier to read IMHO

I agree playing lots of donks can be frustrating IF you look at it from the angle of them playing somehow "wrong" but this in itself is the wrong outlook - bad or worse players ARE where your profit is

anyway I definately think that overall the more donks the more profitable a table is and should be - not less

cheers scrawnybob

[Whatsthepassword?]

This is turning into a very interesting discussion and I can see both sides. It's painful to be on a table surrounded by donks and see stupid calls by your opponents get paid off.

But it is also a land of opportunity and figuring out how these bad players will best pay you off in the long run is the way some tasty profits lie.