how da f*%k do you avoid your AK coming up against low pocket pairs

[sos_egg_n]

Hi all,
i am currenlty trying to build a bankroll on pokerstars starting at $3.40 10 table turbo. I think this is a prob i would not have at a higher buyin but i will not stepup without earning my dollars at this level.


AK V low pp

i so often end up allin with my AK with some moron who has a pocket pair (note i am talking pre flop allin with blinds between 10/20 and 50/100 when this risk does not need to be taken with small pocket pairs) Its a horrible spot i am bhind but my play is no where near as bad as allin on pockets fives or whatever.....Can ne1 think of a way to mayb prevent this happening???


I know this sounds like a dumb question and mayb there is no answer to this but i would generally push allin first and still get called.....is this best??

any advice would be appreciated

Thanks

[kingmotan]

my play is no where near as bad as allin on pockets fives or whatever.....Can ne1 think of a way to mayb prevent this happening???

WHat?
Let me think...
.......
you might try not to shove every time with AK? It's a flip against any small PP so you will win like 48 out of 100 times. You might want to see a flop and maybe think about folding if you don't hit??
Come on, it won't kill ya.

[LombardiStix]

Good advice... oh yeah and if you're thinking well... i'm only in trouble if they have pp, WRONG. 76 suited versus AK off is a 60-40 situation. Lets face it... I don't want those odds either. AK can be used in situations, but rapid fire all ins preflop... ehhh you better already have a bankroll to be able to track down the odds.

Stix

[IwantUrdough]

AK is a really nice starting hand, 1 of the to 10, but remember: AK = a DRAWING hand.
You have to hit to win with it!!!

All in pre flop is bad play (unless you got AA or KK) so why do it?
Just raise, to get the bad hands out of the way, and see a flop.

If the flop doenst connect with your hand, and you are first to act, take a stab at the pot. Try to win it right there. If the villain calls or raises, take a peek at the turn (or fold when raised unless you got a good read) and slow down, change gears.

AK = Anna Kournikova, looks great but doesnt win a lot!!!

[disturbeddd]

AK is a really nice starting hand, 1 of the to 10, but remember: AK = a DRAWING hand.
You have to hit to win with it!!!

All in pre flop is bad play (unless you got AA or KK) so why do it?
Just raise, to get the bad hands out of the way, and see a flop.

If the flop doenst connect with your hand, and you are first to act, take a stab at the pot. Try to win it right there. If the villain calls or raises, take a peek at the turn (or fold when raised unless you got a good read) and slow down, change gears.

AK = Anna Kournikova, looks great but doesnt win a lot!!!

I hope that this hand eigelijk suided can do much better in hand and sit down to have more methods than just bowls you AK or try something else but hitting das everyone I personally think his choices

[scrawnybob]

hi

I would say that your massively overvaluing AK

and also treating the guy with a low Pocket pair with not enough respect

to be fair you have acknowledged that ANY PP is better than AK - which it is so you've kind of answered your own question

The ONLY situation I think that you can justify an all-in push preflop with AK (suited) is if you have massive chip lead over other players in the hand and if you are in late position to push for the previous bets ... ie. your trying to take out a desparate short stack and you are very very much ahead in chips

IF those circumstances happen I'm also pretty sure that the same effective semi steal of 4x - 6x BB with half a hand (ie. AK) would be just as effective against hands you have dominated or at least have chances to make them fold ... would fold to a smaller than allin bet ...

those that call woudl have you dominated - ie. 22 or any other PP

AK is not, never has been, nor never should be somekind of insta push hand

its a hand that mostly you shold expect to loose with and you shoudl definately only be playing it to SEE a flop before commiting anything like a crucial amount of chips to

personally I make notes on ANY players who cant play AK properly or over value them ... and that note / colour code generally runs my mind to then ring ...

pushes badly with AK - cant leave it and will commit all-in even preflop

this means I WILL play ANY PP 22 up against these players I tag making either the all-in move or the 4x BB re-raise type plays ... why ? because I'm ahead

and trust me it doesnt bother me if people playing AK like this think I make a "DONK" call with my 55 or 66 etc ... because I know you HAVE to hit your outs to get back

if I know you have AK and I have any PP I will take that play all day long ;-)

AK is one of the single most difficult hands to play properly - because it isnt a one size fits all hand ... unless you go for a fairly safe start of ...

never all-in, see the flop cheap and dont get sucked into over playing a drawing hand

cheers scrawnybob

[sos_egg_n]

Thanks for replies all but i have done myself no justice with my original post
i will explain my AK play in more detail

Blinds 10/20 & 15/30 despite my post i always fold my ak at this point but would like to know how others play in this situation

25/50 50/100
EARLY POSITION (scenario 1) - limp only if not raised bhind me will let it down on a missed flop...if hit i will play cautiously and WILL RARELY end up allin with just a pair

EARLY POSITION (scenario 2) - limp and is raised bhind me (not a pot commited raise) action back on me ... I want good value on my ak ie blind 50 / 100 i limp 100 (250 in pot) raised 300 (550 in pot) my average stack at this point will be around 1300 - 1500 chips including my 100 call now i will reraise either allin or a raise which clearly pot commits me allin......IN my opinion my hand looks like a monster and should only be called by aa kk qq jj 10 10 or even AK AS this guy could now decide with AK the value in the pot is to good to fold even if he thinks i have a pair which is not aa kk (personaly if i was him i would fold 10 10 j j mayb qq although note i would play my hand different to him to start with).....Often i am called stil by low pp....also u get ur initial raiser ...mayb 2 callers (all non pot commited) i reraise.....inital raiser folds (i would now assume i am in the clear) 2nd caller folds wahoo home n dry one more guy who cannot be big calls with a rank pocket pair and he is back end of the table.....this makes no sense to me he was not interested in pushing allin with a good pot anyway with fold equity BUT is happy to call with obviously no fold equity and a FANTASTIC CHANCE of been bhind in the hand.

MY point is my play is alot better than theres but i am BHIND i also have slight edge as also i can be called A Q or A J even A 10 and lower BUT i value my tournament life and do not want this at risk HENCE i am pushing with good value BUT great fold equity only to get called by som1 who should b bhind and has no fold equity at all.

THIS IS WHAT MAKES THE GAME GREAT AND KEEPS PLAYERS PLAYING AS THERE PLAY IS 100 % BAD YET THEY ARE 55 % TO WIN IN MANY SCENARIOS


I am aware i may just have to take it but my play = good (in my opinion) there play = bad yet this play would not appear to be profitable for me...some how i must be able to make a profitable play out of this scenario...right??

thanks for reading

[sos_egg_n]

kingmotan
WHat?
Let me think...........i Know i did not explain in detail how i play ak but u came to the CONCLUSION i just shove allin which is not the case

seeing a flop for me seems to have more cons than pros....lets asseume i have average stack ie 1350 blinds at 50 if i raise 150 if it is reraised bhind me as my hand does not nescasserily look like a monster what do u do?? plus altho its only 150 i personally believe in a single table sit n go ur chips are like gold dust u do not want to be putting a sizeable % into a pot which has a 2/3 chnce of u missing flop

LONBARD - I am aware of the maths but allin pre flop in this spot should not involve a 76 suited if it does i will happily take the 60 / 40 tho

I WANTUDOUGH - AGAIN I RAISE STANDARD 3 BB ..... GET CALLED... I NOW HAVE A POT WHICH IS ATLEAST 7 half bb....i now have to bet 4 5 bb hence i will be putting in practically a 3rd of my stack in on this and i only half a high.....my instincts tell me not to do this

SCRAWNY BOB - A POCKET PAIR PROS - beats overcards (theoreticlly at this stage u shoud only end up ahead against 1 hand AK) with a 10 percent advantage

POCKET PAIR CONS - U are crushed by overpair as u know = 20 percent ish of winning
and u cannot be expected ur pocket 77 88 99 even 10 10 to be an over pair can u??


THE ONLY TIME I PUSH AK IS IF POT IS ALREADY AROUND 30 PERCENT OF MY stack ie blinds 100/200 i have 1500 now personally i think its impossible to put me on any hand at this point but if u have pp lower than 88 its extremely tough to call as u know i have something

Also when u spot how a player is playing AK is this very often played the same way and differently to how they play any other hand??? if so i think i need to be getting using these darn notes online



AGAIN thank u all for replies and apologese for not explaining initial post thoroughly

PS. I AM NOT INTENTIONALLY TRYING TO RUN DOWN REPLIES BUT MY COUNTER REPLIES ARE MY GENUINE OPINION AND NOWT LIKE A GOOD DEBATE.


Thanks again all

[scrawnybob]

hi

ok I think I see what your getting at ...

that it (should be) harder for someone to call your all-in than it is for you to push all-in

and therefore the range of hands that you can push with is wider than the range of hands you can and should be able to call with ...

all agreed there

in that sense I agree that in theory someone holding 55 should lay it down in the face of an all-in raise out of position ... bacause it screams AA KK etc

but IMHO it also can in some cases (this is why I like to make basic notes) scream AK overplayed (I can drive this guy crazy calling with 55 and possibly busting him - as PP is still favourite)

I do understand what your saying that its a donk call to call an allin (re-re-raised pot or big raised pot) with low / middle pairs ...

but Ive also seen people make pretty comitted bets with suited connectors / suited picture cards etc so it really really depends what type of game your in ... if theyre "thinking alot" or not thinking at all

is it possible in the case of this 55 call that they may have worked out you like to push out of position with high overcard type hands ?

the main thing is that everyone now sees that you meant on occasion raising allin with AK not all the time - the OP wasnt that clear so I think this is why everyone was really trying to help you from making that play all the time

but now we can see you didnt mean all the time etc

cheers scrawnybob

[sos_egg_n]

Thx again Bob for reply

but ur answer has left me with a question that may answer my question

The way i have described my AK play is practically the only hand i ever play this way.....ie if i call early position at blinds of 25/50 or 50/100 then if someone was observant they could be 80 percent sure i have AK. If a player has spotted this it would also explain y i get called by a pocket pair who was the 2nd / 3rd or even 4th person to call the original raiser.

I am currently playing $3.40 games and as many s 15 at a time

If u were playing these games i would stick out at times as on pokerstars u can see a player is registered in 15 games. Would u personally b more observant on a player who is playing so many games??? and how long would it take you to get my play for ak down to a T??? And also would u expect fellow players to be taking more notice than I am giving them credit for even though it is a very low limit??

MAYB THIS IS THE PROBLEM OR MAYB I AM A DONKEY REGARDLESS OF MY AK.


Thanks