Full Tilt Poker Announcements

[scrawnybob]

hi all

just to update everyone Full Tilt had announced they would be making 3 announcements this week following the end of the exclusivity period with the investors which has not resulted (yet) in a deal

more here in the blog which I will update with each additional announcement and thoughts as they come in

Blog ... Latest Full Tilt Poker Announcements

feel free to discuss it all here

cheers scrawnybob

[stoneface52]

What i have found most interesting with regard the full tilt situation is the rhetoric full tilt use on the one hand and the lack of it on the other.

They use terms like monies being 'stolen' and seeking an 'infusion' of monies to make up for missing monies?

As far as my reading has taken me and also listening to some radio interviews on the matter i would like to 'suggest' some observations.

The seizing of assets by the DOJ is most certainly not theft, period! What it does amount to is a legal disposition between the parties whereby Full Tilt must demonstrate it has acted in accordance with american legislation. That does not discount in anyway any sharp practices between the parties, jockeying for position or movement of any particular goalposts as might be relevant. What it doesn't amount to is theft and if Full Tilt can win the legal argument seized assets would have to be returned.

Further to which there is something that we are all aware of with regard to U.S legal precedent: it is the capital of the world for legal pursuance of any legal claim of wrong doing and we all understand its notoriety for 'claim culture'! If, Full Tilt has acted appropriately and the legal advise it claims to have tendered and acted upon is sound, not only will they see the return of their assets but they would also recover their costs and be suitably compensated for any damages relevant to their current position. Whatever people may believe with regard to the situation it is a simple fact that justice in America performs extremely well for the winner of any particular case.

It 'appears' to me that the tone and language coming from Full Tilt does not support a positive outcome in this respect and that has to be a worry for anyone hopeful of a positive outcome relevant to invested funds. Whether they have the stomach for a fight is probably irrelevant because their rhetoric seems to me to indicate they are trying to cut and run rather than defend their position.

Potential new investors or a complete buy out from an investor will relate entirely to the legal and financial position with the DOJ and i am certain that the legal tendering in this respect will be of a sort that puts Full Tilt's legal considerations prior to black friday to shame. No investor worth their salt will bail out Full Tilt without complete separation from the position with the DOJ and that leads me to conclude that the current failure of Full Tilt to secure some deal or other surrounds that legal position.

I may be wrong of course but i suspect those assets may already be lost in legal terms and having read the indictments to some degree it doesn't appear that the DOJ is in the mood for a climbdown?

So, any 'infusion' of money might have to occur through the relinquishing of any claim to those assets and new investors would not in my opinion be willing to recover the losses of previous management/owners of Full Tilt. I could be wrong of course but it would be unusual in business terms for this to occur?

If Full Tilt does go to the wall and a new management/ownership picks up the pieces i would be very surprised if they compensated all the investors,victims and losers from the process. Almost certainly, if the DOJ retain the seized assets as a result of no contest i would suspect that investors would be seriously hit?

If that were to be the case, history would suggest that the legal pecking order in such instances would kick in and that,unfortunately, usually leaves your average Joe and small investor out of the loop? Perhaps this is most relevant to why Full Tilt has been woefully short with regard to communicating with reassuring its base of customers/punters?

It will be interesting to see what the further announcements will be but the rhetoric to me appears somewhat bitter, negative and, perhaps, resigned to a poor outcome?

Again i could be wrong?

Regards stoneface (the bullshitter). lol

[nb1961]

The seizing of assets by the DOJ is most certainly not theft, period! What it does amount to is a legal disposition between the parties whereby Full Tilt must demonstrate it has acted in accordance with american legislation. That does not discount in anyway any sharp practices between the parties, jockeying for position or movement of any particular goalposts as might be relevant. What it doesn't amount to is theft and if Full Tilt can win the legal argument seized assets would have to be returned.

Just a minor correction to this, I don't believe that Full Tilt have claimed the seizure by the DOJ was theft. I have highlighted the relevant part, the theft was allegedly carried out by a payment processor (not difficult to find his name online).

The events of Black Friday came on the heels of prior government enforcement activities and significant theft. Over the two years preceding Black Friday, the US government seized approximately $115M of player funds located in U.S. banks. While we believed that offering peer-to-peer online poker did not violate any federal laws—a belief supported by many solid and well-reasoned legal opinions — the DOJ took a different view. In addition, as was widely reported, a key payment processor stole approximately $42M from Full Tilt Poker. Until April 15th, Full Tilt Poker had always covered these losses so that no player was ever affected. Finally, during late 2010 and early 2011, Full Tilt Poker experienced unprecedented issues with some of its third-party processors that greatly contributed to its financial problems. While the company was on its way to addressing the problems caused by these processors, Full Tilt Poker never anticipated that the DOJ would proceed as it did by seizing our global domain name and shutting down the site worldwide.

[stoneface52]

@nb1961

Yep, i stand corrected there!

Misread on the theft piece, sorry for that!

(Caught bullshitting again) yours stoneface

[Washerwoman]

Have you actually got any money in FT, stoneface?

Is this part of your law thesis?

(or someone else's?)

[thejudge]

The fact that Alderney closed them down almost immediately after being sent documents from the DOJ may have some relevance in the "who's in the wrong here" argument.

What i wanna know is ....who's got my money? and who's gonna pocket it in the end?........

It's probably the US govt who are using my paltry investment (and everybody elses) to (partly) get themselves out of the shit they have dropped themselves in by being unable to run a country properly.

[stoneface52]

@washerwoman

thankfully i haven't washerwoman but i am batting for those that have!

You dont need a law degree to get the impression that the fight is over, if ever there was one to be had? I think the interests of the punters have been sold short and i hope that all the players get their money back and the pro's and others who have cleaned up from Full Tilt get hit with any bills or losses.

Thats probably unlikely should the worst happen but it remains my hope.

The blame for me lies with the site, period, and i couldnt give a hoot what the underlying interests of the DOJ are, or those poker organisations hoping to profit on the back of it. They have got their fingers burnt playing with fire and fecking with american justice but if they are legally sound in their practices why aren't they filing a suit themselves and protecting and defending their interests and the interests of their punters?

Its always the little guy that gets rolled over and those like Ivey and Ferguson,etc, have made $millions on the back of ordinary folk trying to make a few dollars. So blaming the DOJ or crying wolf is futile, the punters money should be found by whatever means including the pro's coughing up and, if, Full Tilt survives suing the arse off those running the show if the punters dont get weighed in.

There shouldnt be any get out of jail free cards and i dont care what site has done what they should all be prevented from behaving in a manner that puts punters monies and interests at risk.

If per chance ive said something there thats misunderstood or not worthy of a law thesis i cant say it any plainer than feck full tilt and those responsible for the debacle or lack of funds! GET THE PUNTERS THEIR MONEY BACK!!!!

Hope thats clear enough in laymans terms?

Regards Stoneface

[Washerwoman]

Unfortunately these sites aren't humanistic enterprises and couldn't care less about your investment or interests.

All they want to do is make as much money out of you as they can.

For sure the money is gone...FT can just evaporate into thin air and if the DOJ takes the money, if they can find it/get their hands on it in the many locations it must be stashed, they're not going to tell you they ripped you off either, are they!

[scrawnybob]

hi

The DOJ have ALREADY got most of the FTP money - thats the whole point of why we are in this situation

There isnt IMHO any secret FTP accounts or crates of money that founders / bitar or anyone else is ready run off with - the DOJ have got it all pretty much bar just short of covering of non US player balances

the AGCC will have also stepped in to make sure the remaining amounts stay put for when things get resolved

it confirms as much in the FTP release

which is what people have been trying to explain ...

$115m seized (by DOJ) pre Black Friday

(incidently ALL US facing sites have had funds seized to some degree or another pre Black Friday - most including FTP & PokerStars just took the hit on their own money and lost profits so that players were not affected)

+ $42m that the squealer payment processor stole (that started this is off giving the DOJ enough evidence to go for broke literally in the case of FTP)

+$128m in "loans" to US players on FTP where they have NOT actually lost ANY money because money was credited to their FTP accounts that has never left their own bank accounts ... but the $128m in paper money will have permiated up the ladder to winning players who ARE owed that money that is actually FTP's actual money and not the original players because they actually havent lost anything of those deposits that didnt happen

+ additional frozen assets in Ireland bank accounts

basically the DOJ has seized so much of FTP's assets and cash in so many accounts (75+ accounts seized overall) that they ended up with very little room for continuing to service the rest of the world players ... then players get jittery and the slide takes them into unworkable territory

which was when the AGCC stepped in - we were IMHO for a while in a position where FTP could have legitimately service the rest of the world players until fear set in for non US players too.

to be honest I think IF certain interested parties hadnt rocked the boat so much (in the correct hope of bombing the value) then FTP could have just about scrapped their way through with enough capital in segregated accounts to cover the non US player balances and then got an investor for the US side of the problem

that didnt come to pass as panic started to break out and non US withdrawals took things past critical - when the AGCC then stepped in

IMHO they only stepped in when the non US player balances were no longer theoretically coverable.

on the "loans" on deposits that never went through some cheeky players seem unable to see that they are NOT owed that money because it never left their bank ...

for example they may have deposited a $1000 and lost it all ... they have lost zero but the $1000 that doesnt actually exist in FTP will have moved to other winning players balances ... so they rightly feel and are owed that $1000 but its money FTP would be finding from their own pocket

take the same player deposits $1000 (that doesnt come from their bank account) and they play it up to to $1120 ... they are NOT owed $1120 they are owed $120

FTP estimate they have only been able to recover around $9m of the $128m in player balance "loans" and players have even deposited the max $2500 several times having figured they weren't getting it debited from their bank and they freerolled on it and then closed bank accounts so FTP were unable to draw the funds owed.

so again not only the DOJ trying to screw over FTP but also a sizable number at least in $ terms of dishonest US players shooting the angles

cheers scrawnybob

[stoneface52]

@washerwoman

Exactly my point washerwoman. The lack of ethical consideration within the industry bothers me greatly and such should be enforced through common practice demanded as a result of specific regulation.

@scrawnybob

You are more up to speed and knowledgable on the issue's by far and what you have said is clear and concise. It should easily be understood! You're underlying opinions and, perhaps, different views to mine on the need for regulation, etc, actually provide some common ground.

Punters are so vulnerable from so many perspectives that they are on a wing and a prayer in every respect. From hoping for the best results in play right through to responsible behaviour from those running and regulating( use the term loosely) online poker!

Ten years or so down the line development should be proactive not reactive, if you take my meaning?

Regards stoneface.