The *Real* Reason I Folded Pocket Kings Preflop...

[ShutUpPhil]

I thought more people would criticize the fact
that I folded pocket kings preflop.

I didn't put the real reason I folded in the post, because
I was curious what the response would be.

My sister-in-law is related to a famous online (and recently WSOP)
poker player I'm sure you would all recognize. He and I have had
quite a few long talks about poker, and while he said I could publically
talk about his philosophy, he made me promise never to reveal
his name for obvious reasons.

The reason I folded in that situation is because of something he said
that seems obvious, but never ocurred to me: In a situation where you
are all-in with 4-5 other people, you will never be a more than 50% favorite
with the possible exception of aces. He feels that risking all or most of
your stack in a situation where you are a statistical underdog is foolish.
(The obvious exception would be rebuys, or if your stack is small or huge.)
In all the years I've watched professional poker, I don't think I've *ever*
seen a situation where 4 or 5 players were all-in. I remember
Nick Frangios <sp?> folding pocket Queens when *two* players in
front of him went all-in. (He was right to do so: The other players
had K-K and A-A) And yet how often do we see 4 or 5 people all-in
in low limit tourneys? I see it all the time.)

He has really changed my outlook and made me realize that rather than
trying to double up all the time, I should focus on taking advantage of
weak players or situations that favor me. (Like being aggressive when
everybody tightens up before making the money, pushing around
a timid player, or letting an aggressive player hang himself by
slowplaying your monster while he tries to bluff you.)

In other words, he said that what seperates the great players from the rest of us
is not necessarily tells or secret skills, but the great player's ability to get their
money in in the best situation. Blindly putting all or most of your stack in the
middle preflop against 4 other people is *not* a good situation, even with kings.
What does everybody here think of that?

(original hand history below)

SharksEatMe

PokerStars Game #15251440036: Tournament #77205775, $5.00+$0.50 Hold'em No Limit Seat 1: SICKTIGHT311 (380 in chips)
Seat 2: cincykid420 (2360 in chips)
Seat 3: crazykokomos (2475 in chips)
Seat 4: milehistacks (760 in chips)
Seat 5: bear_moutain (2625 in chips)
Seat 6: Planefxr (680 in chips)
Seat 7: SociaIist (7025 in chips)
Seat 8: d0peBoyFresh (930 in chips)
Seat 9: SharksEatMe (4935 in chips)
bear_moutain: posts small blind 25
Planefxr: posts big blind 50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to SharksEatMe [Kh Ks]
SociaIist: folds
d0peBoyFresh: folds
SharksEatMe: raises 100 to 150
SICKTIGHT311: raises 200 to 350
cincykid420: raises 200 to 550
crazykokomos: folds
milehistacks: raises 210 to 760 and is all-in
bear_moutain: folds
Planefxr: calls 630 and is all-in
SharksEatMe: folds
SICKTIGHT311: calls 30 and is all-in
cincykid420: calls 210
*** FLOP *** [Jc 6c Tc]
SharksEatMe said, "I have a bad feeling... I folded pocket kings"
*** TURN *** [Jc 6c Tc] [2s]
*** RIVER *** [Jc 6c Tc 2s] [Qh]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
cincykid420: shows [As Kc] (a straight, Ten to Ace)
milehistacks: shows [7d 7s] (a pair of Sevens)
cincykid420 collected 160 from side pot-2
Planefxr: shows [4c Ad] (high card Ace)
cincykid420 collected 900 from side pot-1
SICKTIGHT311: shows [Jh Kd] (a pair of Jacks)
cincykid420 collected 1695 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 2755 Main pot 1695. Side pot-1 900. Side pot-2 160. | Rake 0
Board [Jc 6c Tc 2s Qh]
Seat 1: SICKTIGHT311 showed [Jh Kd] and lost with a pair of Jacks
Seat 2: cincykid420 showed [As Kc] and won (2755) with a straight, Ten to Ace
Seat 3: crazykokomos folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: milehistacks (button) showed [7d 7s] and lost with a pair of Sevens
Seat 5: bear_moutain (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 6: Planefxr (big blind) showed [4c Ad] and lost with high card Ace
Seat 7: SociaIist folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: d0peBoyFresh folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: SharksEatMe folded before Flop

[scrawnybob]

hi

great post

this is exactly what I've been saying about playing aces for ages - alot of posts in the forum are related to "why do I always lose with aces etc"

and my answer has always been the same ...

Aces against one player going into the flop makes you an 80% favourite

but against 2,3 or 4 players your at best shortening your odds at worst making yourself an underdog

this is why I've always said with AA KK you absolutely have to reduce the field preflop so that you are only against one player for the flop

nice to know that a WSOP player looks at things the same way - in the example you give that aggressive narrow the field decision has already been made for you by players in early position going all-in and then others calling the all-in

I too would be getting worried for exactly your reasoning - if two / three people have gone all-in chances are one of them has AA and the others will probably have strong hands too

I think you'd said something like 3 players before you had gone all-in

my logic would be if their all-ins were not going to make a dent in my stack then I would call and hope my KK either got lucky to AA + others

but generally if it meant any sizable amount of my chips (or big stack behind as well) then I would fold KK

as you said you already know there are at least 3 players going to the flop - alot could happen there and you odds are dramatically down - I would say coinflip is very optomistic

if one of them has aces (which with 3+ allin is more likely) then you were down to 20% anyway (against just that one player)

add in 1 or 2 other pocket pairs - your very much in a crap shoot

good fold and good logic

even in the hand you show where no one had AA as you say because its a 3 way pot - the chances of the best hand winning by the end is reduced - and you know it will go to a show down as players are all-in

very good fold and logic

cheers scrawnybob

[kingjames07]

i never really thought about it that way....though i have folded quite a few high pairs....it was just because i wasn't feelin it....lol.....good informative post though

[jeffsbabe]

I commend you for being able to fold your kings. There have been lots of times when I've been blinded by pocket pairs, only to have them cost me lots of chips. Never underestimate the power of "the feeling". It's what separates the good from the mediocre players. Good work!

[butterfly_kzz]

thank you very much for that explaination it does make sense and i have folded lg pp b4 for the same reason...but most ppl do not think that way...good for my bank that they dont

[ozboyy]

Yes the good word! In a cash game you can buy back in, but in a tourney once your gone your gone!!

[kubes777]

thats why i hate kk, anybody calling with ace little can blow you out of the water if they flop...good on you for being able to read and do what you did

[fastplay]

I dont agree with that stratagy. The only reason I am going to fold KK preflop is if im pretty sure AA is out there. I would gladly be a small unerdog preflop with AA if the pot is 6x my bet. I dont see how that cant be profitable long term.

[YoungGunKid]

The way the original thread poster worded his response was very good...and almost all of what he said is very true,especially for tournament play in the early and middle stages.You usually dont wanna risk going all-in against 4 to 5 people preflop unless AA and then still every 1 out of 3 you'll lose

[emb_2]

i completely understand and actually agree with what you are saying...however i don't believe that i have the discipline to make this laydown unless i am certain that one of them has AA and even then sometimes i will still make a crying call by talking myself into thinking he has AK or QQ...