J 10 s... Best drawing hand?

[DomEast]

Hello all,

This has to be one of the most controversial area's in poker..... The best Drawing hand.

J/10s has to be by far the best in my opinion (but a lot of people will disaggree) and here is my argument.

With J/10s in the hole you have the best possabilities to flop many semi-bluff (not making a hand on the flop but can try to buy the pot with the odds in you're favour to make a premium hand to allow a caller) opportunities.

Here are my findings:-

The odds of hitting on the flop are in the first brackets and the odds of completing the hand in the second set of brackets.

Flopping:-

Any 2 suited cards (8.09/1) for the flush draw giving you 9 outs (1.857/1 to complete with turn and river)

Any KQ, Q9 or 9/8 (8.57/1) for the straight draw giving you 8 outs (2.174/1 to complete with turn and river)

J or 10 as top pair (2.07/1). Use this to increase you're outage and thus the risk of chips you are prepared to throw in the pot.

The comparison with AKs:-

Any 2 suited cards (The same but it is unlikely that if you have a flush draw that anyone else will with 8/1 meaning that in a ten handed game only one (you) in eight will hit the flush draw, theoretically making J/10s strong as it is umlikely there will be another flush draw out there. If someone calls with just A,K,Q of same suit they are betting on a runner, runner. Unlikely.)

QJ, J/10 or Q/10 on the flop will give you 4 outs plus 6 outs with overcards(1.6/1 with turn and river) to improve you're hand. Okay, this is the position you want to be in. however the chances of getting it on the flop are 8.57/1 but if you're A/K is suited, well you're laughing. Although with the J/10s you flop the 9s-8s-x then you have 9 suited (2 to 7 and Q to A) cards, 6 open ended cards (7us and Qus) and the 6 overpair cards (J and 10) giving you the maximum of 21 outs. The AK max'sout at 18 outs (minus the three open ended str cards).

A or K as top pair (strong domninant hand, but if you're chasing the premium hands, no good! and just a pair can be beaten if the flop falls for someone chasing the str/fl. Tread carefully. Study the flop for str/fl opportunities.)

Any suited connector (between 5/4 and J10) has the same odds as J/10, but you also have to look at the high pair equity as well. This is where positional play comes in. I.e. the lower the connector, the later position you should play.

One gap cards (5/3 to Q/10 inc Q/J and 4/3) also have good str qualities. They have 11.37/1 chance for the straight draw and can be very good value if played correctly. The one gap (8/6 for example) can give you a good hidden straight draw.

If my odds are wrong please inform me of this

The closing argument has to be the fact that with J/10 you have more permutations to hit the straight with flush draw and overcard possabilities. I am sure that a lot of people will disaggree with me.

Do not get me wrong, the A/K is a dominant hand if you are happy with risking all with top pair and hoping for lesser straight chances but the nut flush is also there for the taking I suppose.

Please reply as I do appreciate constructive critical feedback.

Thankyou for reading and hope you find it interesting.

Take care and GL at the tables,

Dom

[DomEast]

Hello Again,

I have sent this of to PokerPlayer Magazine and will hopefully get some feedback from it from them as well. I have mentioned this site and will also, hopefully, get some free advertising for this forum.

Take care all,

Dom

[scrawnybob]

hi Dom

cheers for the plug - that's cool

like the thread too - would be great to see some more great threads like this (I need to put my thinking cap on and do a bit more in the forum - the behind the scenes stuff is not so interesting but needs to be done)

I like your logic - and following this I'd go for KQ suited - you've still got an open ended straight draw but you also have less to worry about on over cards and your flush draw

basically the ace - would either create probs but also for the other player depending on what they had

you could get plenty of action - but it's still a bit of a high risk hand

brunson likes suited 78 for similar reasons but also it creates more of a trapping hand as players with high over cards / pair etc would be more likely to bet into a lower board

personally I find this can create big big problems if the flush draw is there as you are going to be dead to higher single suited card if they are risk takers

great thread for plenty of thoughts and controversy

cheers scrawnybob

[DomEast]

Thanks rob,

If I had have had forthought I would of included it on my last e-mail, but I nevere have letters published!

I must admit, originally I did prefer the K/Q suited for the same reasons but went for the J/10 because of the A,K,Q.....J,10....9,8,7 drawing cards leaving lots of options with getting the gutshot straight draw as well and hopefully limping the turn to convert.

If I where to get the str/fl draw and no one made a bid for the pot, or limped a small bet then it puts you in good shape to make a sizable play for the pot as long as no one else did. Then I would just call unless I was needing chips and then would have to take the gamble.

It was like the last buy-in at poker.com whene I went all-in and you said 'lets gamble' and whene the cards were shown I had an 8 high (I think) flush draw and you had the Q high with just the river to come. Another anomally in my reasoning, two people with two of the same suited cards in their pocket.

Needless to say you won, but it was still a good game.

I find it interesting about Doyle Brunsons favourite drawing hand. It shows perfect resoning as long as there are no overcards on the flop.

Take care,

Dom

[Dazzler69]

since i increased my studying of poker in the past few months i ahve come across a lot people/articles that debate J-10s as the best starting due its drawing potential. The thing i like j-10 is that when u hit ure hand it tends to be hidden and not so obvious giving you the oppo to increase the size of the pot without very many people noticing you have a good hand!

[thebear]

i like ur stats about 10 j and it makes sense the only thing i find with it is if you dont catch the str8 draw but hit ur 10 or J on flop it can cost you since neither kicker is fantastic but can be tough to throw if the betting is not too high whereas with JQ or KQ if you hit your K or Q to pair you are in a much better position ..... the bear

[JimG]

I'm a sucker for mid connectors.
I've read so many debates on this. It standard that AK is generally knows as the best drawing hand but I think that were talking two different discussions.
The reason I prefer hands like 67, 78, 89 is the fact that they run into less trouble then J10 does. Sometimes it’s difficult to get away from the top pair when being out kicked. Its much easier for me to get away from a low and play the low cards for their straight values.

[DomEast]

Hello all,

It paid of in a recent tourney. I raised at the final table (I was 2nd chip leader) and the other player went all-in. I called with my J/10s and he had 10/9os. We both hit the 10 on the flop and I triumphed with my J/10.

This isn't really impressive as it cost me about 1/5th of my chips to call, but I was happy to see the drawing hand that I love win.

I went on to take down the massive chip leader (I had around 130000 in chips, she had about 650000!) and win the tourney. I did bluff by going all-in at one point with absolutely nothing..... and then showed. She went on tilt and everyone at the table cashed in on it.

Gotta love this game!

Tip of the day..... Do not go an tilt. Whene you think you are going down that road, watch buffy or any other cack TV program until you calm down. Even in the middle of a tourney. Look at Mike Matusow. was it a 40 min penalty to calm down and still went on to make a million at the final table?

Take care all,

Dom