Question ?

[GypsyTea]

Riddle me this?

You Have JK in the BB
4 Limpers

Blinds are £50 and £100 live cash game, you have £1,300 in front of you, the tables got 3 Rocks at it, 3 Loose aggressive and 3 dont know yet + You.
2 Loose /Aggrssive /Aggressive Bluff's +3 river and +3 1xTurn 2 River have limped in.

The Flop comes down:-

QQT

Q1/ SB folded your turn to act, What do you do and why do you do it with all the maths in the answer if you can.

Q2. How many outs do you have?

Have a Good weekend Guys and Gals, I post what I would do later in the thread.

GT

[derringer007]

A1) Im going to call to see the turn since i have improved to the straight flush & royal flush draw but haven't paired up. If the villain has a Q and i dont the hit the draws im screwed.
A2) There is 9 outs to the flush, 4 outs to the straight flush, 4 outs to the royal flush for a total of 17 outs.

[scrawnybob]

hi all

Gypsy your a devil - that hand has nightmares and dreams painted all over it

ok

A1) I'm going to raise - maybe even something odd like only 2xBB but I want a little bit more idea where I am ... even a bit of info is a help in this one

I'd be pretty sure that they would all call - but I guess I want to see who is scared off with a little sign of some (but not much) balls ... and who says in and does what

I'm pretty sure at this stage there will be at least one player with ace something, someone possibly with (trip) queens something (even the 10 10 or other PP drawing to the FH is possible) so I'm worrying about fullhouse most not so much getting beat with ace high flush but not ruling anything out - but I'm aware that some of my "outs" are probably counterfeit.

I wouldnt define the 2-3BB bet as much of a blocker bet as I'm not sure its strong enough but thats the intention - with only stack of only 13 BB I'd be looking to get some info and make some posturing as cheaply as possible ...

I'd be aiming to keep the rest of the table happy - justto call the bet and less likely to raise ... ie. the stronger hands got some action to keep them happy - so I can see turn for 2-3BB ... rather than check or flat bet and find I'm getting raised to 4-6BB by the late position just on principle ... and still no idea where I stand and what to do with facing a big raise ... when I just want to see turn.

I want to see the turn - but also know that with that flop there is going to be other likely players and also action and an expectation of some strength etc - this obviously isnt £1/2 home game

A2) afaiks (quick head count which maybe wrong) 9 outs for the flush +
3 non club aces + 3 non club 9's for the straights

so total theoretical outs = 15 avoiding double counting ;-)

that said with the logic of A1 I'm default saying I'm certain that several of those outs are counterfeited ... ie. other players will have those cards OR some cards would help them more than me - so while theyre theoretical outs I know they're not available OR they would make someone elses hand stronger

anyway pretty sure GT will pull me up on my odds and outs not being deep enough on counterfeits

but in short - I would bet 2-3 xBB because that feels the way I would want to play it for reasons above ... more seems rash, no bet or min bet isnt going to wash at this table

cheers scrawnybob

[Cracker]

What do you mean by this Gypsy m8

"2 Loose /Aggrssive /Aggressive Bluff's +3 river and +3 1xTurn 2 River have limped in."

cheers Buba

[GypsyTea]

What do you mean by this Gypsy m8

"2 Loose /Aggrssive /Aggressive Bluff's +3 river and +3 1xTurn 2 River have limped in."

cheers Buba

Sorry Thought every one would understand this code:- anyway....


Loose = Loose starting hands

Aggressive = agressive betting pre-flop

2nd Aggressive = aggressive post flop

bluffs+3 = in the space of the time I was at the game he bluffed 3 times and I saw the bluff cards, and he bluffed the river 3 times ( bluffing patterns)


It's the way I write my notes and the way I categorise live players in my head. I do the same all the time, then they can be NO mistakes.

Regards

GT

[GypsyTea]

Is there only Bob and Myself that can play poker in 4kingpoker then???


Where is every one?



GT

[luzipher]

IMO

You are playing with only 13BB, so you cannot do a multistreet play. You have only draws, but still a great hand.
Against low/medium pockets you are 62/38 favorite
Against AT you are favorite too 62/38
Against QJ or QK you are close to a coin flip 45/55
Don't think you can think about hands like AQ, AK or big pairs because the players (aggressives) just limped. Is a possibility, but a remote one... anyway, against a range AQs+, AQo+ you are still in a coin flip: 46/54 (against only AQs, AQo you are 37/63)
Against AcXc is close to 41/59
The worst scenario for you is a villain with QT or TT, you are almost dead (90/10) and need the str8 flush (2 outs).
QX hands are favorites against you but close to coin flip (42/59) except Q9 (38/62)

With this scenario, and with your game restricted just to the flop or maybe the flop and the turn (because you are SS) my decision is ALLIN (an overbet and call a raise is the same thing, and the villain can see fold equity when there aren't).

About the pot odds: pot=550, your bet is 1200. If one villain call the pot will be 550+1200+1200 = 2950, so you need equity close to 40% to justify your move (and you have it).
You also have fold equity with your move...

My answer then: ALLIN

I edited to add, that I've been thinking about the hand when I walking to my work...
Still think that Allin is an EV+ move, but probably the best way to play is CRAI. You can increase the pot size from more than one villain and still have fold equity. Have the risk of more than one villain involved, but is poker... You cannot play just the nuts, and is a good spot IMO.

[GypsyTea]

IMO

You are playing with only 13BB, so you cannot do a multistreet play. You have only draws, but still a great hand.
Against low/medium pockets you are 62/38 favorite
Against AT you are favorite too 62/38
Against QJ or QK you are close to a coin flip 45/55
Don't think you can think about hands like AQ, AK or big pairs because the players (aggressives) just limped. Is a possibility, but a remote one... anyway, against a range AQs+, AQo+ you are still in a coin flip: 46/54 (against only AQs, AQo you are 37/63)
Against AcXc is close to 41/59
The worst scenario for you is a villain with QT or TT, you are almost dead (90/10) and need the str8 flush (2 outs).
QX hands are favorites against you but close to coin flip (42/59) except Q9 (38/62)

With this scenario, and with your game restricted just to the flop or maybe the flop and the turn (because you are SS) my decision is ALLIN (an overbet and call a raise is the same thing, and the villain can see fold equity when there aren't).

About the pot odds: pot=550, your bet is 1200. If one villain call the pot will be 550+1200+1200 = 2950, so you need equity close to 40% to justify your move (and you have it).
You also have fold equity with your move...

My answer then: ALLIN

I edited to add, that I've been thinking about the hand when I walking to my work...
Still think that Allin is an EV+ move, but probably the best way to play is CRAI. You can increase the pot size from more than one villain and still have fold equity. Have the risk of more than one villain involved, but is poker... You cannot play just the nuts, and is a good spot IMO.

Some times I see something in poker and I am GOBSMACKED, I have nothing to say about it.

OK I lied I have some thing to say about it, Bob made some good points but man, luzipher IMHO Hit the nail right on the head BINGO!

I think the most effective way to play this hand is ALLIN, but you have to have a BANKROLL of £26,000.00 - $32,000.000 to justify the Play.

You should of had this bankroll to play with 1500 in this game.

I made it 15 outs.

Nice post guys good topic

Regards

GT

[scrawnybob]

hi GT

damn so it WAS a trick question ... lol I should have spotted the short stack for the blinds but I'm not a baller ... I guess I wouldnt have sat down in the game with on £1500 in a 50/100 game ... so I should have spotted that ... GT is a tinker

anyway - result ... I can still count my outs (if you give me long enough)

so given that all-in was right if you have more money than the hero actually had at the table ... but what was the right move with what he had ?

or was it ... rush off to the cashpoint before that hand was dealt and get a proper bankroll ;-)

good hand quiz GT - you've got to have another on up your sleeve

cheers scrawnybob

[Cracker]

Whats a "baller" Bob