DanAbs & the pokerzz - - PokerOrifice makes a decent fold & saves himself some chips

[Poker Orifice]

Hi DanAbs!!! (& any & everyone else!!!). Here we are in the HandAnalysis section.
Making a decent fold & preserving one's stack in MTT play. Here we get off real cheap!
Thought I'd start off with kind of a simple hand, one where I made a fold & 'saved' some of my chips in a small tournament.

{I should probably delete the names but I'm not going to..... part of how the hand has been played out is directly dependant upon player reads.. so they're staying in for now.. hope nobody is offended in anyway}

Blinds > 20/40 - No Limit Hold'em - 17:18:45 ET - 2011/01/16
Seat 1: buzzsaw4 (2,895), is sitting out
Seat 2: natsgrampy (3,960)
Seat 3: pifan2004 (2,295)
Seat 4: bryan24 (4,025)
Seat 5: lukyhearts (1,870)
Seat 6: joker131 (3,470)
Seat 7: HERO (2,885)
Seat 8: cnacwolfie (3,410)
Seat 9: Dooper3 (2,340)
bryan24 posts the small blind of 20
lukyhearts posts the big blind of 40
The button is in seat #3
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to HERO [Kd Ac]
natsgrampy: thought that was a split pot
joker131 folds
HERO raises to 120
cnacwolfie folds
Dooper3 calls 120
buzzsaw4 folds
natsgrampy folds
pifan2004 folds
bryan24 folds
lukyhearts raises to 200 < weird sized 3bet here?? 'minclick raise'
HERO has 15 seconds left to act
HERO has requested TIME
Okay so here I'm thinking about villain's range for the 3bet 'minclick' raise to 200. This is the type of player (my reads) who tends to just 'flatcall' pre with big hands like AK, AQs... & right away I'm thinking.. Hmm.... this REALLY smells like AA to me!! 'BUT' I choose to call because I'm getting a great price to do so.. 'but'.. I will proceed cautiously if I am to flop TPTK type hands (top pr. top kicker) because I might in fact be wayyy behind when I do.
sidenote: villain's bet-sizing here SCREAMS > please call me.. 'or' better yet, 'raise' me. The problem with this bet sizing is that it actually prices in every single hand that had raised ahead of it here, including all sm or med. pp's.. SC's, etc. as they'll be getting GREAT implied odds (& they're also getting GREAT pot odds here).
HERO calls 80
Dooper3 calls 80
*** FLOP *** [Qd 8d 2d]
lukyhearts checks
HERO has 15 seconds left to act
HERO checks
..... I choose to 'check' here wanting to see what kind of action might happen ahead of me & not wanting to get raised off a good draw like 2nd nutflush draw (but is it even any good here?).
Dooper3 bets 120 < 600 chips in the pot & EP plyr. makes a small 'probe' type of bet
lukyhearts raises to 240 < & note now here villain again makes the 'MinClickRaise' (often is a tell of a really strong hand, one where they're begging for action & not concerned with being outdrawn. It's actually pretty much a deadgiveaway too though).
HERO has 15 seconds left to act
HERO has requested TIME
HERO folds
.... I take a bit of time to consider folding the 2ndNutFlushDraw here, It's only 240 to call (getting GREAT POT ODDS here!!!.."a small dent in my stack" jk But am I drawing near dead here or what? (also if I make the call there's no guar. I'm closing out the action here either... EP player might be 4betting here... but I'm not real worried about EP plyr.. its the 'minclick' raiser I'm much more concerned with here.
So I narrow it right down to villain holding 'AA' and one of those Aces is the Ad. It's really the only thing that makes sense. What might seem like a not so easy fold... is in fact an Easy Fold!!! HERO FOLDS!
Dooper3 calls 120
*** TURN *** [Qd 8d 2d] [6d]
lukyhearts checks
Dooper3 bets 1,900, and is all in
lukyhearts calls 1,430, and is all in
Dooper3 shows [Ts Jd]
lukyhearts shows [Ah Ad]
Uncalled bet of 470 returned to Dooper3
*** RIVER *** [Qd 8d 2d 6d] [5d]
Dooper3 shows a flush, Queen high
lukyhearts shows a flush, Ace high
lukyhearts wins the pot (3,960) with a flush, Ace high

As you can see, I would've turned the 2nd NutFlush and would've just spewed off more chips & would've ended up grudgingly folding my hand.
Vs. some opponents I would've actually 4bet preflop with my AK.. but here in this spot, a flat call was the way to go. Folding to the action on the flop saves me some (maybe 'alot') of chips & I'm good to go & move on to the next hand of the tourney, feeling confident in how I've read my opponents in this hand.

[Poker Orifice]

Now to see if I can post the screenshot of it (if not I promise to try to learn how to do this real soon)

crap!! I give up. Sure wish I could just throw a pic. off my desktop onto here. You know... real easy & simple like for the non-puter types (like me)

[Poker Orifice]

Argh!!!!! I tried to edit top post because in some spots it says "HERO" & in others it says "DeepchapChopra".. I edited 2nd post when I wasn't able to put in the screenshot, then I went & edited the first post (but when I did that it removed my edit from the 2nd post). I went back to the 2nd post, 're-edited' it.. and my editting from 1st post got removed.
Argh!!!! I give up for the night!

[Assistanc3]

wish I could just throw a pic. off my desktop onto here. You know... real easy & simple like for the non-puter types (like me)

ImageShack toolbar

[Dan Abnormal]

GOOD IDEA PO and WHOEVER else came up with this, I guess before I bombard or anyone else in this thread, who ever posts a hand, let everyone get the take on it, and Im going to give my take and SINCE IM THE ONE IN MAJOR NEED OF HELP, if yall could tell me where im right and wrong in thought would be great

[Dan Abnormal]

The problem with this bet sizing is that it actually prices in every single hand that had raised ahead of it here, including all sm or med. pp's.. SC's, etc. as they'll be getting GREAT implied odds (& they're also getting GREAT pot odds here). (THIS IS THE KIND OF STUFF I GOTTA FOCUSED ON - WELL PUT SENTECE)


OK I have drawn out the entire picture. I see so many people (around here and elsewhere) just all in push with AA so the fact that this dude had an AA and you knew that (or seem to smell it by the little raise) I mean its cool you nailed the guy with an AA but this hand is general q high flush vs k high flush vs Ace high flush, I dunno, Youre a smart player and the min check raise tipped you off, I dont know If I would be able to say it would of tipped me off and I dont know from what I have seen at the card room how many folks would of backed off this hand. ESp the K flush (which was you).

I DO LIKE THE CHECK POST FLOP but I dont know if I could of came to the same conclusion that he had the nuts by his raise.

ANd I guess these people dont screw around much EP so we have to assume AA AK or KK See I sometimes forget where Im at and will go at with QQ -TT here also, is that range just way too large for EP

BUT DOES THIS MAKE SeNSE. would you have been less leary of him holding AA if he had put in a pot size bet instead of a 1/3 or 2/3 pot size. And for some reason I can see everyone trying to push everyone off their draws by pushing all in before the draws become over obvious by the TURN CARD. Sorta like what that girl did with an all in push with 4 suited nuts on the flop and pushed all in on the flop . I think this hand would of got me as my thinking would say the top 3 daimonds arent all in play

OK NOW FOR RANGES, was it smart for doppler to call with TJo being MP, and after that flop, what made him feel his jack (well queen) flush draw was good to go with where as you dropped it figuring the dude had AA WHAT DID YOU SEE THE OTHER GUY DIDNT

and ASSISTANC3 and BEANFACE if you were in the hand did both of you see it the same way or what would you have done differently to be sure the guy was AA or would yall have been pretty comfy with king high flush (JUST LOOKING FOR DIFFERENT OPIONIONS BEFORE so we dont over saturate too many hands at once)

[Assistanc3]

pretty much a standard fold in a tournament IMO
facing a bet and raise holding Ace high and what could be the 2nd best hand on the river
with the blinds at 20/40 no point getting fancy

[Poker Orifice]

Crap! I wrote out a lenghty response to your post DanAbs but then the damn site 'timed out' on me (& this time I hadn't saved what I'd written (I usually do save stuff.. but had written the chit down quite quickly & thought for sure it wasn't going to time out on me). Now I don't have the enthusiasm to write it all again... sigh.

Off topic:
How come some poker forums don't ever seem to 'time out' & others time out quite frequently? It kinda sucks but obv. I can take precautions so I don't lose material I've written (copy/paste.. or just toss it down on notepad/Word or whatever). Still a bit of a drag though. Hmm...

[madjek]

I would of called after flop, thinking they were just worried about 4 diamonds coming, then would probably pushed allin when it did. I've used the min bet before myself trying to get action. Glad I read this as I see I am problably giving away strength of hand when I do this (I have noticed it doesn't work too often). Great read PO (was it really your read before you saw, we'll just have to take your word for it). Don't know if I agree with Assistance that it was automatic fold, though he likes to fold AA (J/K), so I guess so for him. I have to spend more time thinking before I bet, but then sometimes I over think it. Hope to see more hands like this, think this a good idea, like Dan, I need to improve my game!

[Dan Abnormal]

So you all just have this feeling this dude is holding AA or AK, not KK not QQ. See this is where I gotta sharpen up cause I would feel pretty good holding a king high flush and is the main reason we know were beat cause the dude in EP knows to only play AA or KK and thats it so we have

this doesnt scream out to me just an automatic fold. I wish we'd had a little realistic example going then an online action jackson hand q flush - vs k flush vs ace flush becasue I saw a hand on the league game last night that dude had K high flush and took it to the bank. Here we take one hand and throw the 3 highest flushes possible on it and IM JUST SAYING< YALL MIGHT BE SAYING you knew this dude had the ace high flush but the the dude playing JT did not. I mean you come in with AK and know to fold but the dude with JT does not know to fold, and others are talking this is an automatic fold. Im just trying to hit this from not as experieced angles - I MEAN SERIOUSLY ASSITANCE3 YOU WOULD FOLDED THIS POSTFLOP (im just asking picking everyones brain that participates)

Once I got busted out of this tourny and SAID DAMN why did I go all in, If relooked my only big clue would of been his position and said AHHH AA or KK only here but I dont know if the bets would of clued me in, IM GONNA HAVE TO RELALY EXAMINE THIS KIND OF STUFF

HEY PO OR ASSISTANC3 OR WHOEVER, IF YOU GOT MORE LESS ACTION but more you gotta understand what the bet is telling you type hands POST THEM UP AND LETS SEE (are we keeping them all in on thread or starting new ones)