Bad thinking or Bad looking or just bad playing (Bad playing is prob the answer)

[Dan Abnormal]

ok got a hnad that cost me $4 so first let me explain my thinking and then yall can rip me apart

I was BB in a hand I would not play

Nobody raised and I wasnt with K7o so I checked

FLOP COMES - I get a decent price with bottom pair great kicker and decide to bet in (UNKNOWING AND ILL GET BACK TO THIS) guess I should of folded here

4 players in pot post flop and get a min raise from SB and I bet (OK MIN RAISES ARE USUALLY TRAPS RIGHT well HOOK LINE AND SINKER FOR ME)

Board on not too experience glance doesnt hold much problems especially for the hands the SB should be on unlesss IM misssing something which I did

The turn give me trips and sb rasies only a little and I FIRE AWAY I MEAN FIRE ALL IN $4 and the only reason was to get everyone out of the pot

and FUCK the SB should be on AA KK AK not much else to be in YES NO WHAT???? HELP

end of story I lost trips to straight, do I fold trips with that flop (AHHH ROB WE DONT KNOW THE FLOP)

OK there is some of my reasonig - SO TELL ME EVERY ANGLE THAT IF YOU WERE PLAYING THIS HAND THAT I FUCKED UP all I can say is I fold SB with this holding also if just one of these fuckers in other positions would of raised PF I would of folded but OH WELL HERE IS THE HAND and PICK IT APART

TO AGGRESSIVE TOO STUPID BUT REALLY GIVE ME SOME GOOD food for thought or was just OH WELL THATS POKER hands

Hand#2649014219000780 - Rome 14219 -- $0.02/$0.04 NL Hold'em -- 2011/07/07 - 19:19:06
Seat 1: eugeneseldom ($4.14 in chips)
Seat 2: bigf***2 ($1.80 in chips)
Seat 3: Boge***3 ($2.88 in chips)
Seat 4: Zork***4 ($7.30 in chips)
Seat 5: mach***5 ($4 in chips)
Seat 7: rush***7 ($1.81 in chips)
Seat 8: yyou***8 ($1.86 in chips) DEALER
Seat 10: NCJi***10 ($3.56 in chips)
NCJi***10: posts small blind $0.02
eugeneseldom: posts big blind $0.04
mach***5: posts big blind $0.04
Dealt to eugeneseldom [7c,Kd]
Boge***3: calls $0.04
Zork***4: folds
mach***5: checks
rush***7: folds
yyou***8: folds
NCJi***10: calls $0.02
eugeneseldom: checks
*** FLOP *** [7s,Jc,9h]
NCJi***10: bets $0.04
eugeneseldom: calls $0.04
Boge***3: calls $0.04
mach***5: calls $0.04
*** TURN *** [7h]
NCJi***10: bets $0.20
eugeneseldom: is all in 4.0600
Boge***3: folds
mach***5: folds
NCJi***10: is all in 3.2800
eugeneseldom: returns uncalled bet $0.58
eugeneseldom: shows [7c Kd]
NCJi***10: shows [8d Tc]
*** RIVER *** [2d]
***SHOW DOWN***
NCJi***10: wins $6.80 with Straight, Jack high


MY ANALYZE Is if anyone would of raised both blinds would of folded PF so Im chalking this up to a well disquised str8 and thats poker but then I think all in trip was way too aggressive but then I thing FUCK NO IT ISNT

then I think if this was live the sb would be ont the hook for $20 or $200 does the sb stay in live with no raises . I understand .02 check keeps the sb in the pot but at what level does it not if ther are no raises does the sb fold here if it were live

but same story for me IF this was live and we bet post flop I would not put $20 or $200 on bottom pair great kicker but Id put .20

I think I put an MTT spin on a cash game hand which seems to get me sometimes. with trips do I just call the .20 on the turn but looking at it, he knew I hit but I didnt know he hit on the flop and IF THIS WAS LIVE I bet 5 people at the table would of known he hit, and I already admitted for his position I would not of put him on a str8 maybe top pair but not a str8 from sb

IM still analyzing so at the turn his .20 raise and my $4 all in I guess his min bets should of told me HEY YOUR DONE, Im just saying I would of folded the sb hand pf even if for .02 this begs for other questions LIVE I have to play at least $2 bets maybe I should sample playing what level .25/.50 but from everything I read these level are like high roller levels live I DUNNO ya think this guy would of bet .50 to call or $1 to call

I just need to get it together, Im getting over any fear if I think I have a chance but ...........

[Poker Orifice]

Ok so if you "put him on maybe top pr", why are you re-raising so HUGE (allin)? Don't you want him to call with Top pr. hands in this spot? (do ya think he'll call a 100bb raise here with something weak?... if so.. then go for it I guess ).

I'm not sure why we blame the hand on others not raising preflop? To me, this flop looks like it could hit typical hands that'd limp in micros (any flop that comes J-T-x is dangerous). I see we 'called' SB's min bet on the flop (don't think we bet if I look at the HH). Btm pr on this flop kinda sucks... but it is only a 'minbet'.

Another question: not sure why we're comparing a live game & mentioning $20 & $200, etc. How does this relate? (imo) it's more about bb's..

[Ramster]

One thing i dont understand is why you think the SB should only be playing premium hands here
If the SB thinks you are gonna check behind calling with 7/1 odds is the least he should be doing with nearly all holdings

I think what has happened here is that you have fallen in love with your turned hand without thinking what you could be up against

[Dan Abnormal]

just honestly asking would yall have put this dude on a straight on the flop

[7s,Jc,9h]


Yes I fell in love with my trips RAM - I really didnt expect to be called so I just wanted to take down this pot plus I keep reading DONT SLOW PLAY the hand so once I hit on the turn I dunno, Im just irratated with my play though

THe only reason I say it should be a prem hand is just cause Im trying to figure what Im up against even if Im way off (and I keep reading if youre not strong early pos throw it away, Figured the raise on the flop had him good but Im finding too many times if i dont get to see I dont know if the dude has hit the 9 or J. and was really hoping he'd flip over 7 w/ lower kicker the straight just flew way over my head on this hand

IM lost on the 7/1 odds thing (are you saying my all in bet gave him 7 to 1 on his money) Ill have to relook at the hand and see if I can figure it out unless you want to give a quick answer then I can figure out if I understand or not

THANKS RAM for look over but I feel in love the hand


PO - I didnt want anyone calling , I was fine with that pot for the hand I had, learned that the hard way. Not blaming other for not raising preflop just saying I would of never been in this situation, Im still getting mixed up on this when to limp when not to limp, but it seems the UTG should of not limped (why, dunno, just what most of what Ive read) Yes I should of got out post flop but wanted to take chance and see if Id hit a king on the turn (not that it would of helped and would of probably get me in the same situation)

Also I check flop he bets so I wanted show big time stregnth on the turn plus I didnt want every putting on notes PUSH THIS DUDE AND HE'LL FOLD, but now I guess they just have in all caps FISH EASY MONEY LOL.

You see the hand and take out the all in bet. What are we doing on the turn at this point, If I check again, hes gonna proabaly pot bet me or more and I gues that would of told me he was super strong but then again could of just told me he had 2 pairs but I really gotta look a little longer at oddball flops like this one as it appeared pretty safe but maybe to yall it did not look safe at all and thats a big hole in my game

I only mention live play would be a $20 bet and would this dude put up $20 to stay in this hand or $2 or $5 whatever is on the table. I dont know I keep hearing how the micro tables online are harder than the $1/$2 nl live so I dont know what Im saying just if Im play higher limit online (not much higer but higher) is the SB gonna call with UTG and MP calling preflop, from what I read it should of been an insta fold, but its just from my reading,

the main probl is that the straight went right over my head as I never even remotely put him on a straight

OK IM digging my hole deeper but yall know Im just starting to break out my shell somewhat so Im trying to put my mindset in why I did what I did and then yall can say if it makes sense or was just stupid,

THANKS FOR ALL THE HELP and anyone else who wants to chime in and trust me ill have more hands

[Ramster]

7/1 Dan

14c in the pot pre flop and 2c to call

As far as what you're reading about positional play use this hand as an example

In EP flatting with 8T is not usually a good idea unless you intend to play in some funky way or have pretty strong reads on the other players
You are hoping the rest of the table are folding or limping too so you can see a cheap flop
If there is action after you do you really want to stay in a more expensive pot when you can be certain you gotta hit to win it
In the SB the situation changes a bit as you have already invested in the pot
Post flop you may be OOP and if you dont hit at least you have seen a cheap flop and if you do hit a lot of the time you're hand is that well disguised you can win a big pot,which you found out to your dismay.
IMO depending on reads on others at the table 8T is a good enough hand to be betting pre flop with v limpers from the SB and i'm never folding it for 1/2BB

[Poker Orifice]

[QUOTE=Dan Abnormal;94458]

PO - I didnt want anyone calling , I was fine with that pot for the hand

I'm curious, why would you be fine with trying to win the 'minimum'? Don't you want to value bet when you figure to have the best hand? Don't you want worse hands to call you?
In cash game play, I'd think you want to be building big pots with big hands. But to ship 100bb's into a pot of what.. ~11bb's? Why? What better hands will fold? What worse will call? You want to charge draws an amount where they're not getting the right odds to be calling (a bit more difficult in cash games vs. tourneys, in cash we're more often playing deepstacked & opponents will often have implied odds to call w weaker draws (so in cash we size our bets 'bigger'.. closer to 'pot-sized') in Tournaments, 'stack preservation' is very important also, as tourney goes along, chips won don't have as much value as chips lost (in tourneys we can size our bets more along 1/2pot - 3/4 pot size (depending upon board texture, stack sizes, etc. etc.).

By going with the BIG 100bb RRAI (overshove) on turn, we're losing a ton of value from worse hands that would normally be calling if we'd sized our bets differently. So basically we shove turn we win the least or lose the most (makes no sense to me).

If I were you I'd try watching some Training Vids. on cash game play (& then at another period of time try watching Tournament play vids (both SNG & MTT). Cash game vids., watch the lowest of micro stakes where coach will be focusing on basics like 'proper bet-sizing', 'value-betting', 'board texture', etc. I think you'll gain alot from it. (BlackRain79 puts out good vids. on DTB, there's also lots of oppurtunities to get free trials of these sites).

Also, if you want decent feedback on a HandHistory this is what you should be thinking of doing:
For tournament hands:
Post all stack sizes (along with pos. of players)
Post blinds
Post reads on villain(s)
Our image
Then post the action in the hand up until it's our turn to act (when decision is upon us).

For cash games, stack sizes aren't as important unless we're in a hand vs. a SS (ie. a stack with ~40bb's as you'll often see stacks of this size on the tables). Only mention them if they're in the hand 'or' if there's a bunch of them on the table.

For posting the hand you posted
Stop the post when it's your turn to bet on the turn... ie.
NCJi*****10 - bets 0.20
EugeneSeldom - ???

Then after you've received some feedback, you could put in how much you bet & why.

[Poker Orifice]

If the SB thinks you are gonna check behind calling with 7/1 odds is the least he should be doing with nearly all holdings

What? Why?

[Ramster]

What? Why?

Post flop you may be OOP and if you dont hit at least you have seen a cheap flop and if you do hit a lot of the time you're hand is that well disguised you can win a big pot

[Dan Abnormal]

I gotta re-read a lot of this, Dang PO you throw a lot of info

But I do have a question, did the SB raise of .20 scream a straight to both of you? to me it either said top pair or and at the turn either he had trips or 2 pairs (with the 7's on board). I was thinking about PO's first sentence. I at no times thought I was beat in the hand once I turned trips, hence the all in bet but like i also said the pot was like appox .40-.50 (give or take a few). I was sure I was beat on the flop but not by much but also thinking with all the early callers and late foolders, that (by the book LOL) at least the UTG should of been real strong and the MP pretty strong (No I dont know this but If still trying to figure what I should be range I should be thinking they should be playing.

at one point would either of you known your beat. if we are saying early pos people I shouldnt put on prem hands (well its not what youre saying but I dont knwo what im saying here) , would the .20 raise of folded both of you when you just turned trips, would both of you just folded this at the flop when you did catch a piece of it, and your be asked to invest .04 to continue.

SO are both of you folding here at the flop if not what are we doing, check/calling, raise/fold, raise/call raise, The SB was the aggressor or if we stay in the hand

we turn trips, from the flop all 4 people stayed in pot leading me to believe utg and mp were playing QKA and the 9J might have set them up for a gut shot (WOW FUCK I JUST THOUGHT OF THAT) HMMMM QK is definetly a possiblity so then hmmm that just messed my thinking that casue why would the UTG and MP both stay on flop fuck now Im seeing straight draws everywhere TA TQ A8

OK so now my all bet has folded all the chasers (if thats the case) so SB raises .04 flop (to keep us all in pot) .20 on turn (to get out the chasers and to tempt to lucky guy with 7 in hand or WOULD THAT HAVE FOLDED both of you or what you just called the .20 and risk having a nice 8 or T or Q to fall on the river. What do you think would of happened if I poped up the bet to say .50 would he had pushed me all in there or just called ( iguessing just called to get more money out of me on the river)

Why wouldnt this dude put me on a full house (7-J) (7-9_ I was BB SPECIAL with the all in bet then. I dunno Im just thinking out loud and I gotta really re-read both of your 2nd answers so let me do this but Im getting what you say PO in your first repsonse about anything 9-J-x is dangerous

Dude probably didnt put me on a boat cause my bet was too big for a hand of that strength, but still I dunno if I just called his bets all the way down, but maybe the river bet would of just checked if I was called his .20 bet I dunno.

Ya think if I just called his .20 on the turn I was cooled him down on the river but DAMN IT all goes back to the fact I didnt think I was beat and PO what I did see at this table, lots of folks raising other hands and folding if re-raised, when I say I was happy with the amount in, I dont think there would of been anymore offers after the .20 raise IM LOST AGAIN IN MY THOUGHT, I just didnt think I was beat, but could of been beat with a bad river card and wanted the pot that up. even though I was already beat


HMM I can see both yall faces now, hmm Rob so when you playing cash table again, we can come help you out of some your roll LOL,

[scrawnybob]

hi Dan

I would say its kind of bad luck that you made a hand while they landed a made straight on the flop

but these things happen - so dont beat yourself up too much

the only "mistake" I see IMVHO is the all-in move was a bit kamakazi

not really alot to be gained - I know you said you wanted to close the hand down but sometimes an all-in or way too much of an overbet can induce a call from a much wider range of hands because they suddenly put you on a bluff (when they might have respected a smaller but still substantial "correct" looking bet)

with a 4 way pot and him making the straight on the flop is 20cent bet although relatively sizable is good bet IMHO because one of you is going to call it with somesort of half decent but weaker hand

it would also aim to get one caller to get multiple streets of value also

you all-in was probably not expected but none the less well received

thats the only thing I think you did wrong - getting money in where you should have played a little more restrained

with hindsight its easy peesy to see mistakes - not so much at the time
but I always think if the board looks like any two paint cards would make a hand then you must consider that possible

also any board or flop that has something like 9 J or 10 Q its possible players will limp with 10 Q or even 8 10 as he did

this is micros so while I DONT advocate betting big (as you tried) to induce folds ... you need to factor in that players need much more reasons not to call than they need to make the call

8 10, 9J, 9 10 even become hands they will gamble 2 blinds worth of chips on

the more obvious connected 10 J or 78 more people will play but dont write out unconnected cards - alot of players see a one card gap as "fate" wanting to fill them up - they gamble and they get lucky

dont assume they always do but be aware of flops (and turns) that could make straights even dog ones

cheers SB