Lost to Sitter

[ennotserp]

Playing a DON S n G, I encountered a situation which I consider completely unfair.
Sitting in the dealer position with the short stack of 1100 chips (bubble position) and the big blind sitting out, I decided to push all-in with T9s, feeling confident in stealing the blinds (no other players). The small blind did fold, but the big blind suddenly called - he won the hand and knocked me out. The hand history showed he returned AFTER I made the bet. I wouldn't have pushed if he wasn't sitting out because he was the chip leader at the time. Guess who was PO'd.
I have never encountered this situation before and don't think it is right because a player can use this as a suck-in ploy to entice bets. If this is allowed, then I will always be leary to raise against a sitter.
I have sent an e-mail to Pokerstars asking for an explanation, although I only expect a form letter in return stating that sitting out is allowed.

[Alnoble]

It's very annoying when people sit out and suddenly come back. Unfortuatly there are occassions when we all need to do it or are forced to. But it's wrong if it's deliberate and used as a tactic.

I usuallly make a min raise against a sitter if I'm the only one left as that will force a fold. If they do jump back in I can always get away from the hand.

What annoys me is people who fold to sitters and let them pick up the blinds.

I'm sure your right and you will get a stock answer from PS

[Peteyweestro]

When people are in a game and don't pay enough attention to it to notice who is sitting out and then to let them steal the blinds is outrageous and it gets me flabbergasted

[ennotserp]

The reply I got from Pokerstars is as follows:

"He was able to return to the game because it was not yet his turn (as this was the first betting round)".

It is ridiculously obvious that it was the first betting round, since he can't return AFTER the first betting round.
My contention is he should not be allowed to return once there is ANY action on the hand, including a fold.
I have been involved in a hand where everyone (including the small blind) has folded and the sitter has won the blinds. I was in early position at the time and folded a crap hand, and was PO'd when the small blind folded, telling me that he was not paying attention and could easily have won the big blind. This could also allow a player who is very short stacked (in the big blind) and might be blinded out, thereby eliminating him, to remain in the game, which I have also seen.
By allowing a player to return, this also allows sitters to use it as a ploy to induce a suck-in bet.

As a point of interest, at my local casino, after all hands are dealt, and before any action (including folds) takes place, the dealer mucks any hand of a player who is sitting out - the only exception being if a player lets the dealer know he is present BEFORE any action has taken place. To me, this is the way it should be for on-line casinos as well.

[eberetta1]

I feel for you man. Can't be much worse to bubble than to bubble while the table allows a sitter to win a hand.

I did this today myself, I said I am not gonna let this sitter win this hand, but I did not raise as there were others after me who might go in. flop, check, turn, check, river, check. The sitter won with his Q 3 because I forgot to raise, even tho I remembered to get in the hand.

[LeftyGunner]

I feel your pain but I would have to side with Pokerstars with the fact that he should be allowed to return before the action had come around to him. He's already invested into the pot, and he could have simply been away for a few moments to tend to an errand. If the role was reversed and you were sitting with a premium hand and it was automatically folded before you got a chance to press the "I am back" button you would have been upset as well.

Many times in tournaments I find myself needed a short bathroom break or other reasons for being away for short periods of time. I feel as though so long as the action hasn't come around and my hand hasn't been automatically folded, I should be allowed to play it so long as I return in time.

It's a slimy tactic if he sat there purposely waiting to pounce on this very scenario (short-stack push) but it's something you should be aware of and use it to your advantage in later situations.

[LombardiStix]

TBH, it is a tactic like the rest. You say he was sitting out, but he was also the chip leader. This means you know he was sitting at some point... he hasn't just left the game totally. So that's your first sign to be careful. Plus, they are right, the min raise is just as effective in stealing his blinds without the risk. Why should this tactic be outlawed? Should we also outlaw people who take all their time on their clock? These are strategies... don't confuse them with cheating because someone got one over on you. Hang in there and I bet you'll never fall for that one again.

Stix

[sos_egg_n]

To me i dont even believe this is a dispute

As stated in live poker a players cards are mucked instantly often dealers deal the cards str8 into the muck not even to the players position.

I f u want to be less lenient (i dont believe u should) then u can wait till the action gets to the player....but if he isnt there that very second he has folded.

Have no idea y anybody thinks any convenience should be made by the other 8 / 9 players at a table because a player is sitting out...worse is on pokerstars where it allows up to 1 minute i believe for every action when a player is sitting out as opposed to an instant fold when a bet is made.


i ASSUME the official ruling is player not at table player not in hand
Also to win a hand when u are not at a table is RIDICULOUS and can be a pain heads up.

[PLAYFUL1]

YAH PLAYFUL SAYS A MINIMUM RAISE WHOULD HAVE WON YOU THE POT, BECAUSE AT SOME POINT IN HIS BLINDS , HE MIGHT HAVE JUST BEEN WAITING 2 GET BACK IN THE GAME, NEVER TRUST THE CHIP LEADER SITTING OUT..LESSON LEARNED .. YES THE CARDS R AUTOMATICALLY MUCKED IF PLAYER IS NOT SITTING DOWN IN A LIVE GAME.. GOOD FRIEND IS A DEALER IN THE CASINO

[Poker Orifice]

YAH PLAYFUL SAYS A MINIMUM RAISE WHOULD HAVE WON YOU THE POT,

Umm.. actually it wouldn't have, lol.
In a DoN on the bubble the blinds are quite often 'HUGE'... if OP is sitting on 1100 chips & were to 'min-raise' here, they would likely 100% be priced in to call if BB all of a sudden wakes up and plays back at them. (and actually really isn't sitting out but is using this as a ploy to entice a shortstack into most likely 'minraising' on his BB (or shoving if it's from earlier position) & then 'waking up' and snapping them off with a monster). I've seen this used before a bunch of times (I've actually done it in a regular tourney if I'd missed the start of it, all of a sudden fire it up... I'm 'sitting out'.. and will stay that way until I'm dealt a hand that I'm wanting to play (ie. resteal shoving or playing back at them). It's usually quite successful.. even if you don't have a hand (depending upon size of blinds, etc.... obv. not like in example here by OP).
Yes it's a 'dirty trick' but it's part of the online player's arsenal.

AlNoble > I usuallly make a min raise against a sitter if I'm the only one left as that will force a fold. If they do jump back in I can always get away from the hand.
Perhaps in many situations but OP's is clearly different as it's a DoN & is during bubble play & OP is shortstack. OP can never min-raise/fold in a spot like this. Shoving is clearly the best play!!! (even if villain was sitting in I'm pretty sure it'd the the right play to shove here 100% of the time... that's w/o player reads & knowing stack sizes of rest of table obviously... but am assuming it'd be a no-brainer to click the mouse & put the pile in in this spot w T9s all day long!!).