four of a kind WINNERS TPT II, TPT III - Dark Knights
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PokerJonny
I play SnGs alot (I need to do well because I only work part time and rely partly on my poker income to live) and favour turbos for the following reasons:
SnGs are all about ICM, and better players tend to play the high blind push/fold game far better than weaker ones (this is where most SnGs are won and lost), by playing turbo's we get to this part of the game far quicker hence giving a better player the opportunity to use push fold strategy sooner and far more.
I wouldnt say knowing how to play the high blind push/fold game makes someone a better player. In real tournaments this mentality gets you out nice and fast. Idk... to me it looks like you are relying on good cards instead of skill. But if it works for yah keep on keepin on. GL
I wouldnt say knowing how to play the high blind push/fold game makes someone a better player. In real tournaments this mentality gets you out nice and fast. Idk... to me it looks like you are relying on good cards instead of skill. But if it works for yah keep on keepin on. GL
Thanks for wishing me luck.
I strongly disagree with your first sentence.
"The most skillful post flop poker player in the world will be less profitable at SnGs than the most skillful push/fold specialist."
This is a comment from one of the best medium stakes SnG players on Poker Stars.
SnGs are 90% about the push/fold game and any player who does not know how to play this game will not be successful.
Also I dont really understand your 2nd point - what is meant by a 'real' tournament?
four of a kind WINNERS TPT II, TPT III - Dark Knights
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Ca
Posts: 836
Quote:
Originally Posted by PokerJonny
Thanks for wishing me luck.
I strongly disagree with your first sentence.
"The most skillful post flop poker player in the world will be less profitable at SnGs than the most skillful push/fold specialist."
This is a comment from one of the best medium stakes SnG players on Poker Stars.
SnGs are 90% about the push/fold game and any player who does not know how to play this game will not be successful.
Also I dont really understand your 2nd point - what is meant by a 'real' tournament?
I say real tournament because I consider true poker to be face to face and "real" tournament to be a large multi-table live game. In my view online poker is just a mode to stay sharp and win some cash. The poker I really love is on the felt.
SnG's are 90% about push/fold???? Knowing how to cash in an SnG is a small part of the overall poker knowledge IMO. I guess it all boils down to the angle we are looking at the game from? I didn't mean to insult you, I just don't see push/fold as a very complex or dividing skill. I see the true poker skills dividing the best from the rest and I see this as a tactic mostly in small games. Not saying you can't make money with it... but making money is not my only goal in the game.
I say real tournament because I consider true poker to be face to face and "real" tournament to be a large multi-table live game. In my view online poker is just a mode to stay sharp and win some cash. The poker I really love is on the felt.
SnG's are 90% about push/fold???? Knowing how to cash in an SnG is a small part of the overall poker knowledge IMO. I guess it all boils down to the angle we are looking at the game from? I didn't mean to insult you, I just don't see push/fold as a very complex or dividing skill. I see the true poker skills dividing the best from the rest and I see this as a tactic mostly in small games. Not saying you can't make money with it... but making money is not my only goal in the game.
LombardiStix, I don't think your post was relevant to the topic of discussion originally posted by PokerJohnny. They're describing what is crucial for winning Turbo SNG's and I'd have to say that I agree with them 100%.
Anyone playing Turbo STT's, without decent knowledge of ICM & with a good, solid push/fold game, isn't going to be doing too well in the longrun. Perhaps you're not understanding their comment about push/fold??
And guess what Lombardi.... there is ALOT more to push/fold strategy than you might figure on. I could post a zillion HandHistory question/problems here for ya.... and you might be hard pressed to come up with the correct answers (based on ICM). To develop a good push/fold game, 'most' decent SNG players have played around with Pokerstove &/or SNG Wiz.
Also, what I believe OP to be expressing in their post is.... in Turbo format, it is easy to take advantage of your opponent's mistakes because there is less room for them.
Most SNG grinders (one's who are playing them for an income... or as a resource to build a decent roll from) are multi-tabling the Turbos. Trust me,... I know many.
Lombardstix.... you see push/fold as a tactic??? Can you explain? I think you're missing the point of what OP is saying and are way off topic. Perhaps you're unaware of when a Turbo SNG gets to push/fold stage? If you're interested in learning some more about SNG's,... check out Collin Moshmann's book on SNG Strategy. It is well worth the cost of it (also considered by 2+2 to be 'the bible of SNGs').
I wouldnt say knowing how to play the high blind push/fold game makes someone a better player. In real tournaments this mentality gets you out nice and fast. Idk... to me it looks like you are relying on good cards instead of skill. But if it works for yah keep on keepin on. GL
Lobardistix... I gotta comment on here again... cuz you're way off the mark.
Why are you quoting 'real tournaments' here? And as far as 'real tournaments' go... there are TONS of different types... perhaps you mean deepstacked, slow structured tourneys? Whatever.. it's still irrelevant to PJ's post.
When you say.. 'to me it looks like you are relying on good cards instead of skill'... this is so far from what PJ is talking about, it shows that you actually know little about what he is even expressing here. Push/fold in Late Level (hi blind) Turbo SNG play, isn't about relying on good cards..... much more about picking your spots and stealing blinds out of necessity.. via push/fold... and doing so while you've still got decent fold equity.... 'fold equity'.. the thing you worked on maintaining in earlier levels so that you'd even be around for Push/Fold part of the game.
SNG strategy isn't just trying to win hands (like you see soooo many players trying to do... making a TON of errors along the way as far as maintaining fold equity, etc.).
If you don't have a Solid push/fold game and are playing Turbo SNG's... you will be smoked in the longrun for sure. And YES... there is alot of skill to it... but might be something that the inexperienced eye doesn't pick up on.
I say real tournament because I consider true poker to be face to face and "real" tournament to be a large multi-table live game. In my view online poker is just a mode to stay sharp and win some cash. The poker I really love is on the felt.
SnG's are 90% about push/fold???? Knowing how to cash in an SnG is a small part of the overall poker knowledge IMO. I guess it all boils down to the angle we are looking at the game from? I didn't mean to insult you, I just don't see push/fold as a very complex or dividing skill. I see the true poker skills dividing the best from the rest and I see this as a tactic mostly in small games. Not saying you can't make money with it... but making money is not my only goal in the game.
Poker Orifice has posted my reply for me.
Very good points PO - I think I would like to stay away from you at the table, you seem to have a better understanding of ICM than me!
To add a small point: this section of the forum is all about SIT & GO tournaments, and any talk of other forms of poker or strategies used in different formats of poker are mostly irrelevant.
Also as mentioned by PO, my original post related to TURBO SnGs that are a specific type of SnG that require very specific and different strategies.
four of a kind WINNERS TPT II, TPT III - Dark Knights
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Ca
Posts: 836
You're right that my comments were off base within context and of course everything is contextually based in a strategy thread. I was speakin in oranges surrounded by apples.
I stand behind my opinion of the skill behind winning a 6handed turbo compared to the skill behind winning larger (non-turbo) tournaments. My use of the word "real" wasn't the most clear and caused some natural confusion. And your quote about the push/fold specialist being more profitable than the skilled poker player probablly had a lot of truth to it.
As I stated before, if it works for you and you are accomplishing what you want to accomplish... by all means, enjoy and good luck.
My apologies, I'll just take my inexperienced eye and donk opinion elsewhere. lol
Stix
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Last edited by LombardiStix; 05-06-2009 at 03:07 PM.
flush WINNER Euro League V & VII WINNER PKR mini league I WINNERS TPT II, TPT III - Dark Knights Monthly HORSE - Winner Oct
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Nice thread peeps.
I played some SnG on various rooms with various number of players involved and i last ended thinking that 6-handed suits me well, no matter if it's a MTT or not.
I have no opinion on turbo games cause i don't play them, find it far too aggressive.
For now my favorite SnG is SH with 3 to 5 tables.
I sometimes made some good results at 180 SnG @ FullTilt too, but it last a bit too long for my poker session usually, which not exceed 2 to 3 hours a day for last months.
For me, I think I like the 10-seated the best. More players do mean more money. And 10 people is less then 20, 30. It seems to me that games with those many people, the hands be messed up. To many people in the pot and it's harder to get the better pot odds in a lower steated game. (I play on 9-steated mysyself). 6 seated r ok, but they doesnt pay more then 9 or 10 seated. But I think there better then the 20, or 30.
Second, if u can play well at 10 seated table, then stay there. Why change if u r winning..
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I find that I do better in a tourny setting so I would pick 30 people because it would feel more like a tourny than a sit-n-go and plus if you do really well the payout would be much more worth it for an extra hour of playing then just playin a 6 people max and going out quick because of it being a turbo.
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