Double Up!

[LombardiStix]

So apparently these double up SNG's are all the rage. I've had a couple of people tell me they are building great bankrolls using them. I've only played a couple, but found the play pretty varying. The only part about this whole double up movement I don't like is changing my game to get top five. I feel like it is a much different game compared to playing to win a tournament. So I may play a few... but it loses part of the fun of the game.

What do you think? What are the implications of this and other short-cut games?


Stix

[villaridge]

I hear ya stix. when u think about it, DON (Double Or Nothing) games suck as they teach u useless tactics when it comes to real poker. In fact, I think they can mess with your real "game" goals. DON's reinforce the "make the money" mindset instead of the "go for the win" mentality one should have.

I can usually win a DON, but find myself getting bored with them. Hell, u can't play "your game" with a DON. But, hey, it's another way/game for LAP players to re-enforce their loose passive play, and I like to chip munch on a LAP player.

[Poker Orifice]

I hear ya stix. when u think about it, DON (Double Or Nothing) games suck as they teach u useless tactics when it comes to real poker. In fact, I think they can mess with your real "game" goals. DON's reinforce the "make the money" mindset instead of the "go for the win" mentality one should have.

I can usually win a DON, but find myself getting bored with them. Hell, u can't play "your game" with a DON. But, hey, it's another way/game for LAP players to re-enforce their loose passive play, and I like to chip munch on a LAP player.

I could pick apart this answer here til' the sun sets but won't... maybe just a couple of points.
"IT DEPENDS"... it depends on what our motivation is for playing.... (excuse me if I'm wrong in my assumptions) your's sounds like you're interested in executing a strategy that you've grown accustomed to for taking down SNG's. Of course you can't play "Your Game" in these... at least not your "9-plyr. SNG game"... because they are different. You can still play a game that will be optimal for the table dynamics, payout structure, etc. There's alot more to these than one might first think and there are some Major Adjustments that one needs to make in order to be consistently profitable (isn't this in essence what poker is about,... altering one's play based on many different criteria in order to win?).
For one, we need to give up some +EV spots that we'd normally want to be taking with a Top 3 payout structure.
Some of the players who are playing the DoNs (actually a large percentage of them now... as they are no longer as soft as they orirginally were) are mass-multi-tablers and playing the DoNs helps to release their bonuses. They have also gotten very good at them (run a few names on your table... many will have thousands of games played).

Personally I don't like playing them. Question for ya... isn't "Going for the Win mentality" actually making the Top5? Not sure if you've played many satellites but you'll find a ton of jokers in them who figure that placing in 1st has more value than say placing in 9th (when Top10 are winning the ticket). One needs to alter one's game accoring to many different things. To win the DoNs obviously this is no exception to the rule.
There are some decent DoN Strategy articles out there. If you do get interested in playing them (or if anyone else wants to check it out) you could pm me or just add in comment here on this thread and I'll post an article or two.

[villaridge]

lol, yeah, maybe I should put a disclaimer in my sig " I dont know Jack about Cash games, nor play SNG's much, I am a MTT dude"

It does depend on your motivation. And yes, learning new styles and adjusting is smart poker. And yes, there are people now that specialize in DON's.

My point is that most folks that are new or floundering at poker, should beware of DON's and freeroll games, as they teach you bad habits in poker play...lol, when it comes to MTT's that u buy in with.

Look, the main money in poker is Cash games, then big buy in MTT's, then SNG specialists. Freerolls and DON's are only hurting your game in the long run with how u play them and the lessons u learn from them. OK, I can make an exception that DON's are a way to go for specialization. But that is a GRIND road.

[scrawnybob]

hi

Ive played a few of these a while ago to see what they were about - but as pointed out earlier in all honesty they are played so tight just to make 5th place and then obviously no-one cares past there

frustrating and to me a bit pointless if you following reasonable bankroll management your better off playing in say 3 times the number of standard SNG's and making double or a bit more likely

I think what tends to happen is they are for the "sh*t or bust" player who with say $5 left will play one $5 "shi*t or bust" game instead of playing say 5x $1 normal sng's

on the face of it making it into the last half of the field to double up seems easy - which it would mostly if they played the same as a standard game - but because everyone is trying to just scrape 5th the game changes

IMHO the best thing would be to turn the general approach on its head (partly to get the thing over more quickly) - everyone else is playing survivor ...

so steal like hell - get aggressive with marginal moderate holdings grp 2-4 hands, play alot more hands in late position, steal all the blinds ... and when you get a monster hand semi slow play it to extract more value from one player

if you play it as tight as everyone else (all 9 other players) then it really comes down to the cards and not alot else

IMHO if I had $10 left I would prefer to play either one sitting on a cash table (if it was a sh*t or bust mission) or play 10 $1 MTT SNG's

cheers scrawnybob

[illphillllllll]

i don't see how playing DONS would effect your mtt play. thats like saying the cake tourny structure will effect your ultimate bet results. if your a solid player you can adjust easily to different types of play, developing different strategies will only improve your game. i play DONS a few times a week as a break between ring games and tournys. it can be a great way to build a small roll up rather than the variance of a mtt or ring games.

[villaridge]

What I meant by that is that for newer players, it's a bad idea. Dons are kinda tartgeted at newer less experienced players.

It's like play chip games, the horrible play that goes on there is astounding. If you keep playing play chips you are really just learning and re-enforcing bad poker plays and actions. you are not really learning anything useful on how to play poker beyond the basics.

Freerolls are much the same, as real-money is involved. But it costs you nothing. again the play in freerolls is generally pretty bad. So if you spend a lot of time playing them, you are again conditioning yourself to make bad plays. Your inner fundamental poker foundation of "how you play" is being set, and guided by this immersion in a game where there is constant bad play/poker thought theory going on.

By the time you move up to large buy-in MTT's or Cash games at 1.00/2.00 you begin to realize that WTF, now you have to un-learn all that freeroll/play-chip style of poker play. And un-learning deeply ingrained poker habits that you have is not an easy, nor quick task.

I believe that DONS are much the same.

[illphillllllll]

i see what you mean villa, makes perfect sense. i wasn't thinking from a beginners standpoint but i can see how starting with DONS you wouldn't develope that winners mentality that is important for a poker player.

[JCuervo]

If your like me and your wife doesn't allow you to deposit, there not able way to try and build a bankroll. You just have to play with a lot more patience. It also allow you to watch the number of bad beats that actually do occur and which may actually be helping my regular game a little because it is forcing me to lay down some pretty good hands just trying to reach the money. There also pretty good when there's a game on ty...lol

[witchywitchy]

DONs for the seasoned player are just another tool. One needs to change up your game and the DONs help to that. I am a very aggressive player .... playing in the DONs has helped me refocus on patience and they are great to work on position play. I immediately pick out the weakest players and focus on them... Just as SNGs are the place to learn Final Table play I find DONs are great for working on maximum value from the weak players and position play