MHO:- James GREAT PLAY, Not sure if you know what I am going on about Inflection Points and Colour Tourament Zones, but Its a GREAT Play.
GT
Hi guys.
seems your thread is developing and there are more than 1 opinion (as it should be on 4kingpoker) about that move.
while the move came out to be a great one, and you managed to tripple up (almost) i still think it could be reversed and this how it is gonna be most of the time in real life poker and not the FTlezdonkyououtP...
THE "ZONES" GT is talking about are true and are there, but doesnt it relate to the final stages of the tournament or at least close to the bubble?
the first stages of the tourney are SURVIVAL and about taking as much as possible from the weaker players, and constantly building your stack.... so how can a GAMBLE agaist pocket aces and an over pair possibility from ronsmob be good???
a "feeling" on a hand is something else- its a different issue, but in terms of TOURNAMENT POKER, it was luck and nothing else IMO
four of a kind WINNER US Open League II, 3rd US Buy-in League
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: South Carolina, USA
Posts: 551
I see nothing wrong with the way you played. I see people do this all the time and have done it myself occasionally. You are a gambler. You took a gamble and won. Don't let somebody else second guess your play.
THE "ZONES" GT is talking about are true and are there, but doesnt it relate to the final stages of the tournament or at least close to the bubble?
the first stages of the tourney are SURVIVAL and about taking as much as possible from the weaker players, and constantly building your stack.... so how can a GAMBLE agaist pocket aces and an over pair possibility from ronsmob be good???
a "feeling" on a hand is something else- its a different issue, but in terms of TOURNAMENT POKER, it was luck and nothing else IMO
According to Harringtons's "Q" and Magriel's "M" and Harringtons
"Theory of Inflection Points" they say they are useful from the Bubble to the end of a tournament, Its True, However I say:-
"Gypsys Book:- I do not call them inflection points, I call them Action Points. I think the theorem, Mathematically is a sound one, which can be used to run any given campaign ( torunament) at any time, as tho your tournament is a Military Logistics Problem. I do not see why the zone relationship can not be used for the whole of the tournament from you starting it, to you winning it. copyright The Gypsy"
luckily for me no Ace appeared anywhere on the board as you can see from the 2nd part of the hand i posted....i just "had a feeling" on the hand....sometimes ya just gota go with the feeling
P.S: GT how did ya do in Moscow???
Smashing Night James, I like Moscow as a city anyway, I enjoyed it. ( thread below)
I still like that 99 "Up and Under" play (re-raise over the top 1 player allin for a 1/3 of the re-raise) with the chip stack you had.anyway....
Regards
GT
And i still dont like the gamble as it is, and for it's "neccesarity" (i know its wrong but you understand) at that stage of a tournament.
i got the best advices on 4kingforum over the months and this one GT, just doesn't seem to get into my head- other than luck.
"the fact is: the 9 was there, on the flop" - thats probably the only thing you may say for your deffence - BECAUSE:
BECAUSE the right move would be to fold QQ KK in latest positions if there are 3 all-ins before of you.
BEACAUSE the right move would be to fold AA UTG after they were beaten when you were in the big bling.
BECAUSE an all-in pre-flop simplifies the game to the luck factor, in which you wanna be with the best hand in.
and as Luzipher said, a call there would half good there, but also a bad play in general
Last edited by jacks_off4me; 05-25-2008 at 01:22 PM.
here is a hand from a tourny i was in last nighti will post part of it and you tell me your opinion of my move b4 i post the rest.... then i will post the out come.....just so you know i was ridiculed for doing this in messenger.....the person told me "that was a stupid move...you never reraise after someone has already called an all in"
Full Tilt Poker Game #6524398135: (48906260), Table 2 - 30/60 - No Limit Hold'em - 20:34:06 ET - 2008/05/22
Seat 1: wv_marlee_kev (1,930), is sitting out
Seat 2: I Eat Squirts (3,220)
Seat 3: 0631rocky (1,790)
Seat 4: Butterfly_Kzz (3,025)
Seat 6: ronsmob (990)
Seat 7: Little MB2 (2,310)
Seat 8: kingjames07 (1,600)------------>SB
Seat 9: MirishC76 (1,325)
kingjames07 posts the small blind of 30
MirishC76 posts the big blind of 60
The button is in seat #7
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to kingjames07 [9c 9h]------------>99
wv_marlee_kev folds
I Eat Squirts folds
0631rocky folds
Butterfly_Kzz calls 60
ronsmob raises to 990, and is all in------>??v99 ron could have any 2 (hail Mary play) I would have to give him credit for Ax? at least, but I havnt seen the guy play. Pot is now 1080
Little MB2 calls 990 ------------------>??v??v99 Pot is now 2070
kingjames07: wow ------------------> 990 to call 2.09 to 1 pot odds: 99: 2.47% chance you are facing a higher pocket pair,>so ronsmob is on hail mary chip stack, MB2 smooth called so I think he would have raised with a higher pair, so I put him on a medium pocket pair or a drawing hand, so we have to give him credit for A?,AK,AQ,AJ,AT,TT,99,88,77,??-- I would have gone with A+paint.....,
99=AK = 99=54.60% AK=45.04%:> If you call and a ACE hits the pond you are going to face a decision, so why not make your decision...............
kingjames07 has 15 seconds left to act
kingjames07 raises to 1,600, and is all in......>NOW? ALLIN I agree My play here is ALLIN with this chip stack, if I am wrong I am a fish and go to the next tournament, if I am right I am chiped UP and a Hero, with a zone count thats GREEN!
MirishC76 folds
Butterfly_Kzz: allin or fold huh
Butterfly_Kzz: dammit
Butterfly_Kzz has 15 seconds left to act
Butterfly_Kzz has requested TIME
Butterfly_Kzz folds
Little MB2 calls 610--------------------> why not especially with small pair or A-?POT = 3670 > 610 to call> 6 to 1 for MB2 money= GOOD CALL, hes always going to make money, calling with pot odds of 6 to 1 with any drawing hand>He only has to win 4 hands out of 18 hands he calls to be chiped up at 6 to 1
kingjames07 shows [9c 9h]
ronsmob was short stacked and goin all in gettin no callers every other hand
Little MB2 was playing tight but i wanted her out of the hand
"A Great Play" James you can not beat the maths of it...
MB2 A GREAT CALL you just got unlucky.
Now reading the 2nd part of the hand You cant say MB2 played his AA wrong, nothing he could do.
You didnt know he had AA I would never of put him on AA and you got your money in 1st ! I Still like the your play I would have done the same. As it happens with that flop the money was probably going all in anyway, Whether MB2 would have called the flop Only the poker Gods Know
seems that all your reply is based on- "if I am wrong I am a fish and go to the next tournament, if I am right I am chiped UP and a Hero" and youre probably right about this fact.
but say it was a live tournament, with 2 days journey home if you lose- would your answer still be this one?
"I would have to give him credit for Ax? at least, but I havnt seen the guy play"- probably this is what he's holding but maybe not- maybe its 10' or jacks but pretty obvious its A+ or 7's down.
"MB2 smooth called so I think he would have raised with a higher pair, so I put him on a medium pocket pair or a drawing hand, so we have to give him credit for A?,AK,AQ,AJ,AT,TT,99,88,77,??-- I would have gone with A+paint.....,"- personally i think it's a "you deserve to lose" play because you never smooth call an all-in in that situation with AA bacause you're giving too much pot odds if others will also call- only ALL-IN. other play will only prove itself as greed- trust me
but i'd reduce the range to AJ+ or 10's-8's. thats why i think that its a call or fold move for KJ there, because if you are going in with your 9's after mb2 called, obviously you have to be stupid to assume she'd fold at that stage so KJ is basically praying for the 9 or the overcards without any paint on the flop, then push...
GT you aint teaching us bingo are you?
Last edited by jacks_off4me; 05-26-2008 at 12:03 PM.
Sorry but I just now saw this. I get citisized all the time. I play with my gut. And I would have played the same way! Risky but my gut response is right 60% of time. If I try to play based on figuring outs and stuff I make calls when should, (according to the self proclaimed pros at the table who call names like donk, fish...(actually in my opinion btw are just sorelosers who need some cheese with that wine!) & lose when I do. So based on how others have been playing and my pocket cards I play on that. I also play my fav pockets suited or not...Q3 Q5 K any 10 3 and a few more.
No mate I am not teaching anything..I would of made the same play with the 99 and 1600 chips that james did. The Maths say not me, it wasnt BINGO.
I would of raised the AA and I cant remember what the hail Mary chip stack had in his/her hand but with a few hundread I have gone all in as well with "any-2will-Do play" and I would not of been looking for Ax to do it.
ALL the 2/3 dayers I have played you are a lot deeper stacked at 30/60? so the maths WOULD be total Different. The situation above is Totaly different, I dont know how you can rationalize the 2 tournaments with the same plays??? Anyway basically you pay YOUR money YOU play how you want.
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